[00:00:37] RobbieTheWagner: Hey, what’s up everybody? Welcome to Whiskey, Webb and whatnot with your host, Robbie the Wagner and our guest today, Carlo Tre. What’s going on, Carlo?
[00:00:47] Carlo Tre: Buongiorno or ⁓ buona serata. That’s as far as you’re going to get. No, not much. Pasta. Pizza. Yeah, see, but you and I say pizza different. You say pizza and I say pizza. Pizz. Yeah, the TZ thing. Yeah.
[00:00:51] RobbieTheWagner: Practicing, yeah. Pasta, pizza, alora. ⁓ yes, the enunciation is different. So, yeah, it’s been a while since we’ve been on an episode together, but we have a celebratory, ⁓ we sold a coworking space, Whiskey, to have today for one easy payment of hundreds of dollars for shipping to Italy.
[00:01:18] Carlo Tre: Yeah. Oh my gosh, it was like, I think it’s like an $80 bottle and then it cost three times that to get it to me. So that was not worth it. One of those three, one of those times was I shit you not. Not only did it cost a bunch to send, when FedEx brought it, I had to pay import taxes. So I had to pay another 70 euros. Yeah. And cash. And I was like, are you sure? And he’s like, yeah, I’m sure. And.
[00:01:31] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Well. yeah, you told me this. I tell everyone every time I deliver a package, you owe me money.
[00:01:53] Carlo Tre: Yeah, you can only and then like a week later FedEx sent me a receipt so it wasn’t bullshit, I know I was wondering I was like
[00:01:58] RobbieTheWagner: Okay, yeah, that is very sketchy, but I guess they couldn’t take a check because what if the check bounced? like…
[00:02:03] Carlo Tre: and it was like 76.40 exact change. And I’m like, ⁓ okay. Well, tell us about this whiskey we’re having today.
[00:02:07] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Well, it is from a brand we have never spoken of, Sagamore. ⁓ No, we love Sagamore. It is their 10 year ⁓ reserve series is 110.8 proof. It’s 10 years old. It’s aged in new chart oak barrels and it is just right.
[00:02:31] Carlo Tre: it is a g p and is a blend of they won’t say how many but is a blend of a few and g p rise of various match bills the best i could find about it
[00:02:45] RobbieTheWagner: is it? I guess because this one’s older, because some of their like six and seven years are all their own distillate now, I know that.
[00:02:50] Carlo Tre: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that’s like the magic with like the Manhattan finishes. It’s a four year rye and they do a 30 month age extra of all those separate ones. But anyway, this is not, this is an MGP Select.
[00:03:03] RobbieTheWagner: Alright.
[00:03:06] Carlo Tre: feel like I even smelled whiskey in at least a couple of weeks. It’s very funny.
[00:03:07] RobbieTheWagner: Mmm. It smells like a tire shop in a good way.
[00:03:13] Carlo Tre: got a little citrus on top though. I get that. I get a little bit of a rubber, you know, rubber from tires, a little citrus. It’s weird.
[00:03:18] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Just getting a little like strawberry fruit by the foot. you
[00:03:27] Carlo Tre: I’m not familiar with your artificial flavors, so I don’t know what that means.
[00:03:30] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, well you might ⁓ in Italy I’m sure they’re just clear and they’re made of just strawberries somehow.
[00:03:36] Carlo Tre: Yeah, yeah, turns out. All right, I’m gonna give it a priming. Remember, this is how you get your palette ready.
[00:03:45] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm. We haven’t had a whiskey expert on in a while, so been phoning it in.
[00:03:50] Carlo Tre: Yeah, bunch of fucking noobs. Hmm. That’s like, syrupy. Yeah. Huh.
[00:03:55] RobbieTheWagner: wow. That is very woody. Extra few years are possibly not a good thing for it.
[00:04:01] Carlo Tre: parent for you? Well, ⁓ aged for 10 years in new charred oak barrels, which is not always the case with a rye because it’s not required. That’s why there’s a lot of Finnish dries too. ⁓
[00:04:14] RobbieTheWagner: I assume it’s the same as their… I think they’re all probably new? I don’t know. I haven’t looked that close into it.
[00:04:20] Carlo Tre: I don’t know, but they don’t have to be. Yeah, I’m not sure. They’re making a big deal. ⁓ wow. ⁓
[00:04:24] RobbieTheWagner: You know, this is like eating a 2x4. I don’t hate it, but as much as I love all the other Sagamores, this one is not doing it for me. I don’t know. What do you think?
[00:04:40] Carlo Tre: Interesting. I’m actually, I think priming, like a light sip to prime my helps because it’s not, ⁓ it’s mellower. It actually has a little bit of, ⁓ what is that, ⁓ Cointreau, you know, the orange liqueur that you’ll like float margaritas or whatever with. It has a little bit of that kind of in the front. So it’s like a bit syrupy with like orangey citrus to it. ⁓
[00:04:56] RobbieTheWagner: yeah. I wonder if Adam and I have just been doing stuff that’s not this high proof too maybe? And so it’s kind of just hitting my mouth.
[00:05:13] Carlo Tre: Yeah, yeah, he’s kind of a baby. ⁓ It has, I see what you mean, but I’m almost like feeling like it’s a little more like fall leaves, you if you were like crunchy, dry leaves, a little more of that. And a light bit of nutmeg on the finish for me. Nice.
[00:05:18] RobbieTheWagner: You Hmm. Yeah, I mean, it’s not bad. It’s just like, I don’t know, whenever there’s a really high standard of like, it’s my favorite one, I feel like if it doesn’t deliver more than that, I’m like pretty critical on it. it’s the one you like. Yep. All right. So we’ve changed the rating system since you’ve been gone. It is now…
[00:05:50] Carlo Tre: Well, you know what they say about the best whiskey? It’s the one you like. That’s right. ⁓
[00:06:04] RobbieTheWagner: 0 to 96 headphones.
[00:06:08] Carlo Tre: Mmm, or like how many bass strings, you know, maybe you guys did that since you both play instruments and Is it a four string an eight string?
[00:06:13] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, no, it’s a Yeah, no our scale is the same. Do you recall the scale you want to tell the folks at home what it is?
[00:06:24] Carlo Tre: Well today, Bob, the scale is zero to eight tentacles. Zero being terrible. Spit it out, throw it away, don’t clean your toilet with it. Four middle of the road, an apian amazing, clear the shelves. Was that okay? That was my commercial voice. Yeah. All right.
[00:06:40] RobbieTheWagner: Alright, yeah, that was good. It is for me. Yeah, Sagamore is still great. This is probably my least favorite Sagamore. It’s still good. If you can pick it up for cheap and not spend hundreds of dollars shipping it, you probably should. I’m going to give it a five, I think.
[00:06:46] Carlo Tre: Permé? Hmm, okay. ⁓ Yeah, it would be very unfair for me to ⁓ apply ⁓ money paid to value given, so I’ll just try to consider it street value at about 80 bucks. I don’t know, for a 10-year rye that is interesting for 80, I think it’s, for me it’s actually pretty good. For me, it’s not bad. But… ⁓
[00:07:12] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah.
[00:07:28] Carlo Tre: Yeah, I’ll just pull out the few words I know that and I’ll extend it through this entire podcast. So you’re welcome. ⁓ I don’t know. I kind of enjoy it. You’re a rye person. So it’s and I know you like a lot more spice. I don’t think this has that. ⁓ Yeah, I I want to say it’s a little above average for me. Like it’s tasty. It’s a little different. ⁓ But I don’t know, five and a half to six maybe like that’s about where I’m at.
[00:07:42] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, it’s not very spicy.
[00:07:58] Carlo Tre: ⁓ I mean, if I see Manhattan finish, I’m buying that all day long. This one I’m like, it’s not bad, it’s worth having, but I don’t know if I’d strongly recommend.
[00:08:04] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they might have purposefully made it different. So you’re not just like, it’s the exact same as like the standard offering. But their standard offering is so good for like thirty five bucks. It’s like it’s almost a disservice to all their other products because they can’t like it’s just so good. But.
[00:08:15] Carlo Tre: Sure. Mm-hmm. Well, for you in particular, you might as well just buy, you know, six bottles of that and be good for the rest of the year, really. Yeah, unless you’ve upped your drinking based on the number of children you brought into your house. I mean, it wouldn’t, that wouldn’t look down upon you.
[00:08:30] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm. Well, yes, we’ve been trying to drink less and like you get to the end of the day and all the kids are yelling you’re like, where that wine at? Let’s open that wine.
[00:08:48] Carlo Tre: Yeah. I was going to say, like, I could, I was, I haven’t even smelled whiskey in at least a couple of weeks. I mean, it’s just not as available and, ⁓ so way more wine and a bit of gin. You know, some gin here, make some gin cocktails here and there and then, uh, but wine on the regular, you can get a great bottle of wine between like eight and 10 euros here. Like where are, yeah, and in, in Phoenix at least, we were definitely in the like 15 to 20 range to get something like, this is what we’ll have regularly. That’s fine. Some nicer, but whatever. I mean, eight to 10, you’re getting great stuff. You can get bottles of Lambrusco for six that are fresh and great.
[00:09:04] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah, hard to beat.
[00:09:34] Carlo Tre: So, that’s the direction of things.
[00:09:37] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I tend to not drink whiskey except for on the show or if I have like some people over because then it’s a conversation piece of like, look, I have a lot of whiskey. Let’s try some. can tell you about them or whatever. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:09:48] Carlo Tre: An insane amount of whiskey you know when this thing wraps up here, and I have like a Garage full of just booze or something boxes and boxes because you can’t fit it all on the shelf Yeah
[00:09:59] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, well I ⁓ give them away, so I’m doing okay, not having too, too much, but yeah, I’ve got a lot.
[00:10:07] Carlo Tre: Yeah. Every time you go to like your parents’ lake house, you got to take a couple of cases. Yeah, here you go.
[00:10:13] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, I give my dad like at least four to six every time he comes here I go there ⁓ so Yeah Yeah I am yes, ⁓ yeah, I Well, yeah. Yeah. So the only problem is like ⁓ I’m too old and out of shape for like how small and low to the ground it is ⁓ And so I’m like
[00:10:19] Carlo Tre: Yeah. Well, I’m sure he enjoys that. Are you still driving his car around? Free car, that’s a good trade. Huh? Huh?
[00:10:42] RobbieTheWagner: Because sometimes we had a couple flat tires ⁓ and a ton of stuff where, you know, Caitlin’s taking the kids somewhere and I need to take them to school or whatever. ⁓ And so I’m like, wow, this is not super convenient to put a car seat in the back of this two door convertible. ⁓ So I was looking at some other cars. We were trying to find something that has a front bench seat so that our dog could sit in the front with us and then the kids can all sit in the back. ⁓
[00:10:58] Carlo Tre: Yeah, no.
[00:11:11] RobbieTheWagner: That is really hard to find unless you want a suburban size vehicle, which I don’t love. The only option is a Defender like the one we had, you know, that we took to all things open. Yeah, it was it was surprisingly smooth riding, but it’s kind of for like a Land Rover vehicle. It’s not super luxurious. And then the yeah, the middle seat, though, is like.
[00:11:15] Carlo Tre: You yeah, no Mmm. I didn’t love that. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of plastic in there.
[00:11:38] RobbieTheWagner: The headrest is so high, you can’t use your ⁓ rear view mirror and you can’t see in the back really. That’s kind of a deal breaker.
[00:11:46] Carlo Tre: Yeah, leave it to the Brits to break the whole system.
[00:11:50] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, because that we thought that would be a good option and I’m like, yeah, so we found one that like we were going to get that’s up in New Jersey and then we were like, hey, it’s that’s too far to go on. I like we don’t love this car. ⁓ So, yeah, still waiting for the scout, possibly interested in an R2 this year if they come out like they’re supposed to.
[00:12:04] Carlo Tre: Yeah. The R3s look really cool too, but those are small for you. Those Chinese, like now that I have access to Chinese vehicles, I’ve looked at some of those too, because ⁓ there’s some really nice ⁓ Chinese cars, so.
[00:12:15] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, I need something bigger. Those are nice.
[00:12:29] Carlo Tre: What is it called like BYD is the main brand and then there’s some offshoots from that and then there’s the big electronics company not Zwei but another one that is like coming out with a crazy luxurious SUV. Or I guess they have it in China already and then they’re starting to sell in other places. They’re gonna go to Canada. No, no, that’s always been the point like we’ve kept them out based on tariffs because I mean they can subsidize.
[00:12:42] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm. Well, I imagine with tariffs, there’s like no point in even trying to sell them here. So.
[00:12:56] Carlo Tre: their industry and make the price points very nice. ⁓ But instead you get Ford. You get a Ford Mach-E. Enjoy that. Not you, but…
[00:13:02] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, that’s my biggest problem, too, is I’m like, I would love to have something electric, but I don’t know if that’s feasible. Like, I think probably what I’m looking at now is maybe doing like the cheapest Bronco I can find, like the new Broncos, not a classic Bronco. ⁓ And then just driving that until the Scout comes out in like twenty thirty or whatever.
[00:13:24] Carlo Tre: Right. Yeah, whatever that might be. Anyway, let’s bring it back. not into… Yeah, I mean, we were talking about automotive technology, of which we know very little. If only we could get into like auto hacking. I always found that like very interesting, but I’m like super scared to basically destroy a car. Like, oh, I hack into it and make it better. No, and now it’s, you know, a brick. a big brick.
[00:13:32] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, so we’ll see. Yeah, do we talk about tech on this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I used to add a tuner for my Mustang and I would it was Bluetooth which was scary as fuck because if you’re in the middle of like changing stuff and it goes like I’m not connected then you’ve your car is bricked like you can usually still fix it luckily if you can get it to connect back and stuff but I’m like, ⁓ my god like ⁓ Yeah, like get get one that plugs in guys. The Bluetooth connection is not the move
[00:14:03] Carlo Tre: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, you take a lot of risk. There’s a whole like… Yeah, I remember looking into like car pies, basically a Raspberry Pi set up for your car and it’s meant to be like not modern cars. But I was like, there’s just too much of a possibility that software fucks up the whole car. Speaking of software, what about web development? Is it?
[00:14:40] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, so I know next to nothing about this, but I saw the headline ⁓ Astro was acquired by CloudFlare, which is cool. Big big fans of Astro.
[00:14:49] Carlo Tre: Yeah, I did. Yeah, it is cool. Yeah, definitely. I think that’s a great thing. what kind of, I think it was hard to define a business model otherwise and they’re making a great product, so it makes sense. Cloudflare is a, it seems like a natural landing place, maybe more than like, bun to anthropic to a degree, but other than I guess,
[00:15:17] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah, Cloudflare, I think, is like, has similar ideals of like, you know, let’s make a multi-page application and like make it fast to go between them using some like special hacks we have and like stuff like that.
[00:15:28] Carlo Tre: Yeah, yeah, and like being very minimalist in it and like using all of this sugar to attach it together. So yeah, it makes a lot of sense there. It’s good for them to continue to be supported. ⁓ It’s good, you know, CloudFlare has had their, I don’t know, a few issues recently, so it buys some good favor, I think, too. I think to a degree is probably AquaHire as well. Like…
[00:15:55] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, I think CloudFlare, ⁓ it’s interesting them and like Verizon when they had their outage recently. ⁓ I feel like all of those just show people how widespread the company is. Like when CloudFlare goes down and you can’t access any of the Internet, you would think the stock would go down and they’d be fucked. But what happens people go, my God, they control the whole Internet and the stock goes up. like that.
[00:16:02] Carlo Tre: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s just like US East One going down or having problems and the other half of the internet goes down. You’re like, this is all very much in very few places. Yeah.
[00:16:30] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, don’t worry. We’re building as many data centers as we can here, so.
[00:16:35] Carlo Tre: Yeah, trying to at least. mean, that is caught up in lots of bureaucracy for sure. The when we were staying in Tucson before taking off for Italy, there was a lot of news around like Tucson community feeling like it was a win. Really like voted against putting a AWS data center there. And because it uses too much water and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And like it does.
[00:16:42] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. God. Well, that’s a specific Arizona. Yeah, that’s a problem. ⁓
[00:17:06] Carlo Tre: It is kind of a problem in Arizona, but we can sell all the water to like Saudis and stuff and that’s okay. I don’t know, you know, yes, but also like selective morality then they can take up farmland and grow alfalfa sprouts and that’s okay. But, you know, an actual American business also taking advantage of resources is not like, you know, it’s just there’s a face on one and there isn’t on the other.
[00:17:35] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, there’s been a lot of complaints here. Like they put in tons of like Ashburn area is just like all data centers and everyone voted for that. And it’s actually it’s good for them because I think it I don’t know if it reduces their I think it was like the average it reduced their property taxes by 40 percent or something was like the deal they got out of it.
[00:17:41] Carlo Tre: All right. Wow
[00:17:55] RobbieTheWagner: And ⁓ but the problem now is they’re putting in giant power lines everywhere and just taking people’s land to do them because they have to. And they’re like, you can’t put that giant power line in my backyard. And like, well, actually, you guys all voted for this thing. And yes, we can. So. Yeah. Yeah, no, you don’t.
[00:18:08] Carlo Tre: Yeah, eminent domain, enjoy. You don’t actually own anything. you you own this property, just kidding, you’re gonna pay rent on it forever in the form of tax. So, enjoy that.
[00:18:20] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, you own the physical materials the house was built with. You don’t own anything else.
[00:18:25] Carlo Tre: Yeah, yeah. You bought some land, but you’re gonna pay tax on it forever. Yeah, what an interesting thing the tax system has managed to do. And there’s no more lands to conquer to escape tax, so here we are. Mars.
[00:18:30] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yep. I don’t know. I guess Greenland won’t be conquered right now, but.
[00:18:43] Carlo Tre: Will it not? Cause I don’t know. I am…
[00:18:46] RobbieTheWagner: I don’t know, the headline today was he backed down from that and the stocks were all up today because he was like, yeah, I’m not going to do that. ⁓
[00:18:52] Carlo Tre: Yeah, by the way, I won’t start another war or something. I guess that’s good. Yeah, I don’t know. It’s wild. And it’s very interesting being outside of the US and seeing US news. Just being, you know, just sitting and seeing.
[00:18:55] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah. I imagine it makes us look even stupider than it does here. ⁓
[00:19:15] Carlo Tre: Or just, you know, it’s just reflective of whatever it is, stupid or not stupid, I don’t know, you know? ⁓
[00:19:22] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, I still think the majority of it is actually not as stupid as it looks. It’s just all based on profits and we don’t understand the system. But.
[00:19:31] Carlo Tre: Exactly. Yeah, there’s definitely a means to the end. It’s not arbitrary by any means. I want to talk about this. Everything is a loop. Have you ran a Ralph loop yet?
[00:19:37] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, for sure. I have not. ⁓ Yeah, I mean, I’m always like a couple of weeks to a couple of months behind the like whatever is trendy. And Adam tells me about all the stuff like the day it comes out. And I’m like, OK, well, I don’t I haven’t tried it. But no, I haven’t done that. ⁓ I’ve been having good success with like no customization whatsoever and just telling open code what to do. And it’s like, got you. So like I don’t.
[00:19:55] Carlo Tre: Yeah, yeah. Does it matter what model you’re using or? Okay.
[00:20:12] RobbieTheWagner: yeah, yeah. Like when, I mean, I guess you still can’t use the the Claude, like Max or whatever, or did they they put it back? OK.
[00:20:18] Carlo Tre: Mine works. ⁓ Yeah, that was an interesting thing. So got rug pulled basically is what I felt. also ⁓ had been using that and then there was a workaround and that worked for about four hours and then I was like well yeah I gotta see how this all shakes out so then I like everybody else went to go try you know codex and GPT-52 and GLM-47 and okay let’s load Gemini and just whatever for now ⁓ but see yeah and it’s an interesting thing because like it it worked just fine in
[00:20:27] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah.
[00:20:56] Carlo Tre: code, just don’t like that interface as much. I’m used to the open code interface and my own customizations. And so you go over there and you’re like, eugh.
[00:21:00] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm.
[00:21:06] Carlo Tre: You know, like at least as far as like using that harness in the terminal. So but I don’t know, was a day or so. It was like over a long weekend and I went back and tried it and that was like working again. So I don’t know if that’s just I’m super special or but it has been working and I’ve been going back and forth between GPT-52 and Opus 45 just kind of compare and contrast in case it happens again. But yeah. So what model have you been using then?
[00:21:21] RobbieTheWagner: okay. Yeah. Okay.
[00:21:36] Carlo Tre: Thank
[00:21:38] RobbieTheWagner: Well, I’ve been just paying for open codes in and then using the like. ⁓ So I’ve been using warp to so I got like warp subscription and I’ve been going back and forth. ⁓ I still think the best results I get are from ⁓ Claude Sonnet four five with open code. ⁓
[00:21:42] Carlo Tre: Mmm. Yeah.
[00:22:00] RobbieTheWagner: That’s what I’m typically using. I’ll have to try the API key again to see if it works now. We can use it at work now, which is fun because ⁓ they had an official partnership with GitHub. So you can use like copilot to like power it. ⁓ So I can do that because we’re allowed to use copilot. And so loophole, I can use open code at work. ⁓
[00:22:12] Carlo Tre: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that’s funny. Yeah, so I mean I do have a team plan through work, so I don’t know if that’s a loophole compared to normal max subscribers, but ⁓ Yeah, we have a team premium. I guess is what they call it when you’re on team, but it’s essentially max and gets some a bunch of so I don’t know if that is the difference if it’s not working for you that could be the difference but
[00:22:30] RobbieTheWagner: Hmm. Well, I haven’t tried it since the news hit. I’ve just been doing other stuff since then. I would like to have open code black, but I guess DAX doesn’t like me that much, so I’m still on the wait list.
[00:22:47] Carlo Tre: Yeah. Which is kind of like… No, you know what he likes? He has a child now too, so he likes $200 a month. That’s what he likes. I’m not paying for any of this shit. I gotta be honest. So, you know, there’s a big difference there too. I have some budget, so I had OpenCode Zen and was putting some money in when I was trying a few other models that way too. It’s nicer than like OpenRouter and that kind of stuff. Yeah, but…
[00:23:03] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah.
[00:23:19] Carlo Tre: The Ralph Loops I have run have been just running Claude to the CLI because when people were talking about all that stuff, I was kind of like, yeah, but I don’t know. I don’t know which of you are the latest crypto weirdo trying to pitch me some weird shit. So I don’t quite trust it. But once Matt Pellcock started talking about it.
[00:23:40] RobbieTheWagner: It’s just a for loop. Yeah. ⁓
[00:23:42] Carlo Tre: It is. Yeah, I get it. It’s a for loop that runs like, you know, especially when Matt Pocock started talking about it and it was just like, just create a bash script and it does this. I was like.
[00:23:51] RobbieTheWagner: Well, did it need to be him or was it just his voice that convinced you?
[00:23:55] Carlo Tre: ⁓ Both? Yeah. I mean he owns the voice so that’s what I’m gonna say it’s gonna be both but like I think he’s he’s a good teacher like a good speaker in that way and then when he started speaking to this subject it just kind of clicked with me and I was like okay now this makes sense and read a couple articles you can mess with the like Ralph once you’re just kind of practicing practicing and see what happens and it’s interactive mode and then
[00:24:01] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:20] Carlo Tre: Okay, here’s YOLO mode. And then I tried to write one that was open code working, but there’s kind of not a one-to-one mapping, so I just was like, don’t know, later. I have seen where a few people have put out stuff to do it with open code, but if you’re away from keyboard anyway, who really cares?
[00:24:40] RobbieTheWagner: That’s fair.
[00:24:41] Carlo Tre: Yeah, so done it and it wrote ⁓ a desktop app in Tori and ⁓ it does build and fires up and does a couple of things but doesn’t totally work. There’s tons of things that are broken. So I’d say it was like a 50 % run but it was very interesting.
[00:25:01] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, I mean, I think it doesn’t really matter if you’re doing a Ralph loop or anything. I think I guess there’s more manual prompting if you’re not to like make sure it’s doing what you want. But I think you end up with kind of the same result. ⁓ And like I’ve been having I built a podcast toolkit thing, which I need to share with you. But like for doing all the podcast stuff, like you want some some art. Just build my whiskey everywhere. That’s good.
[00:25:11] Carlo Tre: Yeah. Okay, maybe you want to address that. This is a… So this is what happens when I convince Robbie to have a higher proof whiskey. He becomes a sloppy old man and, you know, the results are hopefully it doesn’t destroy any electronic equipment. ⁓ But I get to finally speak openly. He can’t control me anymore. he’s back. Yeah, and so Robbie is an excellent co-host.
[00:25:30] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, just to say. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I heard you the whole time.
[00:25:57] Carlo Tre: ⁓ And I really… ⁓ God. Have another Mr. Wagner. ⁓
[00:25:58] RobbieTheWagner: ⁓ now now I’m putting my desk down on accident. ⁓ God. No, I think it’s just like I think there’s a hot key for like just put it down to. All the way. Yeah.
[00:26:11] Carlo Tre: Yeah. Excellent. This episode is brought to you by… I don’t know what your desk is. Autonomous. ⁓ yeah, you still have the B-Flow. Yours was the one that worked. This episode… Yeah, this episode is not brought to you by B-Flow because they sent me a broken product twice. It was very nice though. Aesthetically pleasing. Yeah, yeah, was aesthetically pleasing. I mean, I basically got sent a return and that was like most of the problem.
[00:26:19] RobbieTheWagner: B-flow. Yeah. Yeah, I paid for mine. They have nice stuff though.
[00:26:41] Carlo Tre: I guess it’s not totally their fault. They tried. Swing and a miss, but they tried. Also, was giant, so I couldn’t take it overseas. It’s a nice desk, though, in that sense. I can’t even really tell the name of the one that I bought here. It’s very much like the autonomous one, but called something else and out of Germany. I don’t know. It works. They had a lot of different sizes. They have European sizes, because many rooms are smaller here.
[00:27:08] RobbieTheWagner: Okay, all right, so now need to pour some more whiskey.
[00:27:09] Carlo Tre: All right. Yeah, do that. So everything’s a loop. But I think, so here’s the thing, is whether it’s one prompt at a time, whether it is customize skills to help your context window be more efficient. The loop, the intention is, is that the loop is fresh context every time, and then it can just read a progress doc and your PRD and say, okay, these four are done.
[00:27:15] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah.
[00:27:38] Carlo Tre: Progress Doc said you did these things and I have fresh context. so because polluted context is where things get bad. If your sessions run too long, things get bad. ⁓ So I like all of, yeah, and then it starts at zero. So well, it has reference points, right? It has your PRD, it has your code base, it has whatever sort of agent setup you have, whatever skills you have, like,
[00:27:45] RobbieTheWagner: Mm. But if you have no context, then it doesn’t know what it’s building.
[00:28:07] Carlo Tre: I don’t know, I think there’s ways to sort of load it up. The whole point of the conversation is, but first of all is that, you know, I think loops are interesting, I’m gonna continue to explore them and or other new things like that. It’s imperfect, but it’s interesting. And that our jobs are changing in this way. I think our jobs are changing this way. When we talk about DX and developer tools, as we have, this is just, this is actually gone from crypto.
[00:28:28] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:36] Carlo Tre: which was a technology that has been used in a way that makes people distrusted and you know, it’s a, I don’t know, a financial vehicle in a different way or blockchain. I guess I should say blockchain, not crypto. So blockchain is the technology. Crypto had sort of one intention and was applied in many other ways. This had that possibility and I think you still have people talking about it in a way they don’t really know and they’re marketing it weird and trying to make money. but I do think it’s a tool for web development where we have become, we’ve all been elevated to kind of like tech leads and it’s important to understand how the pieces fit together and it’s, we’ve been forced into like a product engineer role because planning is a huge part of success. And ⁓ it’s funny for me to say this because I was a self-taught person and took that path, but I think this,
[00:29:28] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:35] Carlo Tre: This kind of stuff is going to close the entry. I think it’s still very worth getting a CS degree or getting CS learning because I think engineering understanding is pretty key. I don’t know if universities still have everything there though because they don’t really give you real world experience. So don’t know how we fill that void. But trying to be like a hobbyist turned professional will be very challenging in the future. I think trying to get in that way.
[00:30:05] RobbieTheWagner: yeah. I mean, I think the only real programming is going to be building the AI tools and the new models and stuff. like algorithms still very applicable, like definitely learn data structures and algorithms and stuff like that. But yeah, ⁓ you know, taking a class on HTML and CSS or something, no way. Do you ever need to do that again?
[00:30:16] Carlo Tre: Yeah Yep. unless you want to build your own library in order for the tool to use, I guess. There’s a nuance that you could do. There’s some hobbyist aspects of that. I think systems design is actually highly important. think scaling exercises, things of that nature, yeah, those are all pretty important. It’s going to be hard. There’s no boot camp that gives you that.
[00:30:51] RobbieTheWagner: No. Yeah, Adam and I were talking about the general, like, you know, software engineer path, right? And it’s like, yeah. So like, it’s kind of fucked everybody. Like juniors can never progress or learn because like you have to be super disciplined to like go learn it instead of just ask AI to like do it for you. ⁓ Seniors aren’t going to mentor you because they don’t need you to build the stuff. They can just ask the agent to do it for them.
[00:31:19] Carlo Tre: Yeah.
[00:31:20] RobbieTheWagner: and tell it what to do. like the whole thing, like nobody’s gonna code by hand at all, which kind of changes the whole game. And then when you hit that point, I was like, yo, so why do you need any technical knowledge? Like there’s gonna be a set of people who are really good at prompting for whatever reason, just innate ability. And like, they’re gonna just kill it. Like they won’t be able to tell you what a front end framework is, but they can build you a whole website. And like, at that point, do you care if that person? knows anything about the technologies that end up building the website? Or if it works, are you cool with it?
[00:31:54] Carlo Tre: Well, okay. Yes and no. I agree and I disagree completely at the same time. I don’t think that like a prompt bro is gonna like be a successful professional, like good at it. Doesn’t mean they can’t get an outcome, but like really good at it. I just think that like the game pieces are changing or even just the board itself. You like wipe the board and you’re like, well, these aren’t the pieces I need anymore because it’s kind of a different game. So I think understanding, like CS principles, I think understanding systems design, I think understanding. ⁓ you know, how to like take ⁓ business objectives and user feedback and things like that and translate that into like technical requirements will probably still be a thing. So you’ll need to kind of know, but you really don’t give a shit whether it’s written in, you know, Golang or Python. You’ll just be like.
[00:32:53] RobbieTheWagner: Right.
[00:33:00] Carlo Tre: I need users to be able to access the site and it loads in milliseconds. And then when it goes here, this and this are the important parts for them to get first. And you’ll want to progressively enhance in these ways or whatever. Who knows whatever the terminology will be along the way, but you won’t care. I’ve actually been talking about this a whole bunch. It’s sort of like the craft of code might be dying in front of our faces because…
[00:33:27] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:29] Carlo Tre: It was always about pleasing the human. You have the craft and you document appropriately and you’re using the most efficient ⁓ array method for what you’re trying to do here and you’re not nesting turin areas because gross and it’s hard for me to understand but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t fucking work. And also…
[00:33:51] RobbieTheWagner: Yep.
[00:33:54] Carlo Tre: ⁓ The abstractions that we’ve added on top of things that end up getting like obfuscated in production anyway And so it’s sort of like ⁓ I’m doing I’m putting this extra work to make the humans happy, but the machines Interpreted and they get a different input and interpreted in a different way So it actually kind of doesn’t matter so much and what does matter so that’s I think those are the things that are very obviously gonna change I mean perhaps like a junior today is maybe a apprentice in three years and there’s someone who knows how to orchestrate this environment and they come in to learn how to also orchestrate a similar environment and force multiply in that way. yeah, like pretty code goes away. People recognizing a framework probably goes away. Like, you know, like
[00:34:42] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Well, I wonder if JavaScript in general or handwriting JavaScript and TypeScript goes away because it’s so like, you know, the Wild West. Same with PHP. Like you have to enforce your own guidelines for it to like have any sort of structure. like so something I’ve been working on ⁓ with Swatch, I built like a new well, I didn’t build it like open code built it. But like ⁓ the the.
[00:34:59] Carlo Tre: Yeah. Yeah. There you go.
[00:35:20] RobbieTheWagner: color picker thing. I don’t know if I talked to you about this or just Adam. Did I tell you about it?
[00:35:23] Carlo Tre: You didn’t, ⁓ you mentioned it in a brief side note as I was trying to change the API stuff.
[00:35:30] RobbieTheWagner: Okay, yeah, so the the color picker used to be there’s an eyedropper built into Chrome and it’s an electron app. So we’ll always have Chrome. So I was like, cool, let’s use it. And it’s pretty bare bones. The Chrome one has like just one big circle with like one dot in the middle. And it’s ⁓ you pick that color and it does not work on Linux. It will not work on Linux. They refuse to do anything with Linux. And I know why now because holy shit, is it like
[00:35:46] Carlo Tre: Right.
[00:35:57] RobbieTheWagner: so difficult to get it to work because like there’s so many different things you can you can have like different ⁓ i can’t even remember the terminology now window manager is not the thing ⁓ compositor is that it i don’t know there’s so many different things there’s a wayland one there’s a there’s there’s x11 there’s like all these different things that like render shit and tell you what you can do with permissions with the screen and what can record the screen and what it can do and stuff and that’s why chrome just said fuck it we’re not going to implement that for linux
[00:36:12] Carlo Tre: You can make up a word and I think I would believe you.
[00:36:27] RobbieTheWagner: ⁓ So I decided to do it anyway. ⁓ And it’s not as full featured for Linux because it just like takes a screenshot and then like does it over top of that. And so you can’t like get a color from your dock or like things that are slightly outside of the window, ⁓ stuff like that. But anyway, I was like, yo, open code, make me this thing. Do it in Rust, because Rust is cool. And… ⁓
[00:36:30] Carlo Tre: Hmm. ⁓ I see. Yeah, rest is cool.
[00:36:53] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, like, and so it built me a totally separate implementation for Mac, Windows and Linux. ⁓ It like figured out how to compile it all and put it all into like then the front end of it is an electron window that’s just a little circle with like a grid of colors. ⁓ And it works pretty okay. ⁓ So
[00:37:13] Carlo Tre: Except for swatch is super slow now though.
[00:37:16] RobbieTheWagner: It is, yes. So we’ll get into that in a minute. But so I learned yesterday when I was trying to get this all to work because I was trying to fix a couple little edge cases and stuff like I took all of that code and took it out of swatch and I released a package called Hugh Hunter ⁓ that is just for that. ⁓ And so it’s kind of annoying because it has like these assets you have to manually go in your electron build and say like extra resources and pass it this stuff and like I want it to be just you install it and then you just like import and use it like I don’t want the extra steps. So I learned that there’s a thing you can use called let’s see what NAPI RS I guess NAPI RS and it is a thing for Rust where you can turn all of your Rust stuff into native node add-ons. So it basically compiles it to like C++ or whatever and then compiles that to like
[00:38:00] Carlo Tre: Okay. easel.
[00:38:12] RobbieTheWagner: You know, whatever node ships like, because you know, they’ll have like the node, jip thing that like build stuff. So it’s basically doing that, which once you get into that workflow, node and electron and stuff can kind of auto find all the stuff and like, do it with no extra like steps in your app. like, that’s the next path to go down. Anyway, this is a long winded answer of like, I think you can tell whatever agent build me a thing. do it in Rust, use this thing to compile it to Node, and then it gets all of that type checking that’s super strict. It can’t do anything wrong theoretically. Like it can do things inefficiently or whatever, but ⁓ it’s never gonna error, that’s what I mean, because that’s how Rust operates. And then, ⁓ like, put it all in Node, release that as Node modules that you then install in your app. You don’t need to write any JavaScript code. You can make it super safe with Rust.
[00:38:52] Carlo Tre: Sure.
[00:39:10] RobbieTheWagner: release it all that way. Like that’s that’s what I’m my hypothesis.
[00:39:11] Carlo Tre: That’s a very interesting. This is, and I think this is kind of the beauty of AI, is I can’t imagine that is a release path that you ever would have kind of come to on your own.
[00:39:27] RobbieTheWagner: No, no one would do that without AI, but you get to do a lot of stuff you would have never done.
[00:39:32] Carlo Tre: Yeah, yeah. And you don’t have to fully understand, you know, the language to kind of get there. Like you get the gist, you know, you know, okay, there are syntax nuances and I don’t have to work through that, but I can kind of, you know, the next thing I want to do, I want to add one of those like voice command apps that a lot of people are using in order to just speak through their brainstorms. I think there’s like whisper and there’s a couple other open source ones.
[00:39:59] RobbieTheWagner: Mm.
[00:40:00] Carlo Tre: I’m very intrigued by that because hands-free development, hands-free engineering, that’s what I’m going for.
[00:40:09] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, Adam was doing that the other day. We were coding some stuff, pairing on some stuff for StarPod and whatnot. And Warp has a little button. You just click a microphone and talk to it. ⁓ I like Warp. I was, yeah. ⁓
[00:40:16] Carlo Tre: Hmm hmm you some more boys Zach’s a good dude, just wasn’t sticky for me. It just hasn’t, it’s never been sticky. I don’t know what it is.
[00:40:30] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, I was telling Adam that like I it’s one of it’s like a vibes thing because like it’s essentially the same as using open code, but it doesn’t quite always give me the same quality of result. ⁓ So it’s like like they’re kind of interchangeable. But yeah, I’m like I’m like you like there’s I can’t really say exactly why, but like I like using open code and that’s like.
[00:40:43] Carlo Tre: Hmm. So you’re like, what’s? Okay, here has been my recent jam. So I’ve got a few different things. So I do, I use WorkTrees and I will run, like if I’m running multi-agents in the same repo, then I use WorkTrees and I’m in Ghosty. And I’ll kind of do that. And then if I… Don’t like, if I’m in a repo where I’m just gonna run one thing, I’ll open Zed and then in the terminal within Zed, I run open code and then I can, yeah, the desktop app. Yeah, I don’t know. I downloaded it and then I just don’t use it because my stuff, you know, I gotta get mad or whatever, frustrated or thrown out for whatever reason to go that route.
[00:41:23] RobbieTheWagner: Did you see they have a standalone app now? Yeah. Yeah, no, I opened it up and I was like, this is totally different than just like typing in open code and using it. So like, why would I use this? I don’t understand.
[00:41:46] Carlo Tre: Yes, I know. I feel like we’re picking sides a little bit. It’s like Adam’s doing the desktop app and Dax is doing the 2e and whatever. ⁓
[00:41:55] RobbieTheWagner: Hmm. And we all know Dax only codes perfection, so that’s why. And eats meat. He slings bug-free code and eats steak.
[00:41:59] Carlo Tre: Yeah, yeah, this is what he sold us. He’s, he’s… Yeah, he eats meat. That’s true. I can respect a man who has eaten a steak like twice a day for months. I’m like, I don’t know. I mean, I know you’re jacked.
[00:42:10] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah, we got to follow up with his blood work because he was like, yeah, I’ve been eating two steaks a day for I know, it was like six months or something. And he was like, I’m going to go get my blood work done to make sure I’m not dying. I’d be curious to see what that said. Yeah.
[00:42:18] Carlo Tre: It was wild. Right, right. You’re still quite thin, sir. And Adam is a vegan, and he’s jacked. So that’s a funny test.
[00:42:32] RobbieTheWagner: Well, he buys peanut butter by the like five gallon bucket, so.
[00:42:35] Carlo Tre: Exactly, yeah. So it’s a boring, it’s a boring lifestyle for sure. You can’t live here. You can live here as a vegan and enjoy your life in any way. Everything around you is amazing. And you’re like, nah, it’s not for me. there’s a fucking egg in that. I can’t have that. Yeah, not all, but there’s definitely many delicious pastas that have eggs and, but also like…
[00:42:46] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Well. Yeah, guess. Yeah, I guess pasta, too. If you had eggs in the pasta. Yeah, that’d be.
[00:43:01] Carlo Tre: There’s cheese all over the place. The cheese is great. Like, no cheese. Yeah, I can’t be, I could do vegetarianism. In fact, we do some meatless days. you do? All right, yeah. So, yeah, do you wanna cook two meals?
[00:43:04] RobbieTheWagner: ⁓ yeah. Yeah, vegan is tough. I would definitely never do that. Yeah, I basically have to do that anyway. So. Yeah, because Caitlin is vegetarian, so yeah, like Caitlin’s like you want to you want some meat, you cook it and I’m like, you know what? I’m good with whatever you’re cooking.
[00:43:25] Carlo Tre: Mm-hmm It’s true, you know throw some beans and stuff in there and you’re like, I’m good too. Yeah, whatever Yeah, I can have cheese still. All right. I’m on board
[00:43:32] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah, and whenever we go out, it’s like they’re gonna cook the meat better than I would anyway. So I just get meat when we’re out.
[00:43:39] Carlo Tre: You added the Claude Cowork thing.
[00:43:43] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, yeah, so okay. Yeah, let me wrap up the the swatch talk just because we’re done talking about swatch, but yeah, it’s super slow. I don’t know why it’s slow. So. So when when you run it locally, which is all I ever do, like running it from Dev mode. Works perfect. So Adam was showing me like, look, I downloaded swatch and I was like, God, that is slow as fuck. What do you like? Is your computer broken? And I was like.
[00:43:44] Carlo Tre: I want to talk about that a little bit because… Wrap it Sorry.
[00:44:11] RobbieTheWagner: wait, like so I tried running it, you know, the app you can download and it is so slow. And I was like, I don’t, I don’t know why. Because I also have packaged it. So I was like, all right, maybe it’s like just a dev versus prod thing. So I packaged it as a production app without like fully releasing it, like, ⁓ you know, not doing the signing and stuff like whatever, just but it’s still the production. Yeah, and and it worked. It was
[00:44:32] Carlo Tre: Yeah, a little side loading or whatever.
[00:44:38] RobbieTheWagner: pretty okay. Maybe it wasn’t as good as Dev mode, but it was like not as slow as the released one. And so I don’t understand what is happening. Like, I don’t know if it’s a VEAT thing or, or what, but like.
[00:44:50] Carlo Tre: Hard to say. Maybe it’s time to move off of electron.
[00:44:54] RobbieTheWagner: Well, I mean, just spent forever getting it to work, you might not be wrong. ⁓
[00:45:00] Carlo Tre: Tauri is in rust, if like that.
[00:45:04] RobbieTheWagner: Well then I don’t even need to compile my stuff to ⁓ node. I can just use it probably, right? yeah. ⁓
[00:45:09] Carlo Tre: I would think, maybe, yeah. basically the base of it is Rust and then it does the electron stuff, but Rust. And it’s like smaller, their whole thing is like, it’s smaller packaging, and this, and lower memory, and…
[00:45:18] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. I don’t care, bro. It’s a desktop app. Make it 10 gigabytes. I don’t care. You download it one time like. ⁓
[00:45:29] Carlo Tre: Yeah, 10 gigs. I don’t want your stupid 10 gig fucking color app. Are you kidding me? No.
[00:45:37] RobbieTheWagner: No, it’s, I think it’s like 500 megabytes or something and like 400 of that is Chrome or whatever. But yeah, so I don’t know why it’s slow. If anyone has any thoughts on that, let me know.
[00:45:40] Carlo Tre: Yeah. Yeah, how is that going to work for an ⁓ old 3G phone in Africa?
[00:45:58] RobbieTheWagner: Well can’t use it on a phone, so.
[00:45:59] Carlo Tre: Yeah, well, I guess there’s that. ⁓ I think phone is the path to success, though. Remember we saw someone who had a color app, and they were like, just point as if you’re taking a picture, and then it takes the swatches from there. That’s badass.
[00:46:02] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it’s not. ⁓ It’s not meant to be super successful. It’s just for me to play with. Yeah, it’s my sandbox so I can learn things.
[00:46:20] Carlo Tre: Yeah, experiment with this path. I know. Your life is like that. You’re like, you’re like, want to figure out this problem. I’m going to do an open source thing. Wait, I have a life now. I can’t maintain it.
[00:46:33] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s tough. my God, I finally got release plans set up on Angular Shepherd because every, you know, few months whenever a new Angular version comes out. Because like like millions of people download it, so I’m like, why not? I don’t.
[00:46:41] Carlo Tre: Why are you still doing Angular Shepherd, though? I thought we agreed that we are no longer doing wrappers. but there’s millions of dollars not in your pocket. So again, what do we need to do rappers for? Rappers do, no?
[00:46:54] RobbieTheWagner: But if it has enough people using it and those people become paying users, like, yeah. So I don’t know. I’m not spending time on it anymore because release plan is set up. They’re like, my god, it doesn’t support the Angular version. like, then make it support it and I’ll merge your PR. Like, I’m not doing the work. But I then had to do the releases. And I was like, fuck. So I have to pull it down and build it and push it up and stuff. I don’t want to do that. Yeah.
[00:46:59] Carlo Tre: Okay. Okay. That’s true. Yeah. Okay. ⁓ Okay No, no. Yeah, so you got that. Got you. All right.
[00:47:27] RobbieTheWagner: So yeah, Cloud Cowork. ⁓ Have not used it. I don’t know if you have. is it not?
[00:47:29] Carlo Tre: Yeah, Claude, go work. No, because it’s not available to you yet. Actually, no. They announced it, and it’s not GA yet. ⁓ it’s part of my super special Teams subscription. They sent me an email, actually this morning, saying that we’re getting it tomorrow. So I was like, cool. Because there’s a couple of open source things. So there’s like Claude bot.
[00:47:40] RobbieTheWagner: Mm.
[00:47:59] Carlo Tre: CLAWD bot, which was, yeah, cloud. And then there was another open work, or I don’t know, was another kind of, ah.
[00:47:59] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, cloud.
[00:48:10] Carlo Tre: Anyway, some other people are trying to do these like desktop apps that connect to your file system and do things. I’m like, I think that’s very interesting, but I can’t trust a rando to have access to my entire file system of my computer. So I haven’t pulled the trigger on any of them. I’m very interested, but like Claude bot. Yeah.
[00:48:22] RobbieTheWagner: That’s true. Yeah.
[00:48:33] Carlo Tre: I don’t know. I don’t know you dude. I don’t know you bro. What are you gonna do with my shit? So I will start tomorrow.
[00:48:35] RobbieTheWagner: Ha. I think, yeah, let me know how that is. think I’m very curious about the like non-coding ⁓ applications of AI in general. Like there are pretty easy problems in my opinion that could be solved. Like the problem I now have is we have a thousand kids. So like I want to book a dinner reservation and like someone else is coming with us. We suddenly have eight to 10 people.
[00:48:42] Carlo Tre: Well… Hmm.
[00:49:06] RobbieTheWagner: And I’m like, hey, Open Table goes, oh, you have more than six? Like, oh, can’t do it. Like, I want an AI thing that just calls them and goes, hey, fuckers, I got eight people. Be there in a little bit. Like, I don’t know why they don’t let you just book it in the normal app anyway, but.
[00:49:17] Carlo Tre: Yeah, that would be amazing. feel like, yeah, well, the restaurant probably sets some boundaries there, and so there’s a way around it. I do think that there’s efficiencies all over the place in life. I think some of the improvements that I’ve been able to make at work, I mean, a slow day is four to six PRs for me. and I’ve had days where I’m like 10 plus PRs. this, like so, yeah, you’re just 10x’d. I think that the quality’s decent and all of that. And so I work for a small company, we’ve been talking.
[00:49:52] RobbieTheWagner: It’s so fast, yeah.
[00:50:05] Carlo Tre: across the company, what can we do? And we’ll try this, and we’re going to try this, and how do we create things and more efficiencies? One of the very interesting things in R &D recently that I’ve been doing through these Claude loops and creating PRDs and talking about, over here we experimented with this, what are the ⁓ feature differences between this code base and this code base? And it’ll come out with a gap analysis. now into a feature list and ⁓ connecting the ClickUp MCP. All right, so go look at all the tickets, all the tasks we have created, connect the ones that exist to this feature set, and then the…
[00:50:52] RobbieTheWagner: bet that makes ClickUp usable, because ClickUp was so intimidating without AI.
[00:50:56] Carlo Tre: It’s so crazy. It’s like, yeah, and they keep adding stuff there. And so it’s like another notion to me in a lot of ways. It’s like, I thought it was cool and now it’s like too much. But now being able to connect my AI agents to it and I say, okay, what are the features that are not captured over there? Great, create it. Here’s the top task, here’s the sub tasks, looks exactly like the PRD that I’m gonna run in a Ralph loop, perfect. And then,
[00:51:08] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah.
[00:51:25] Carlo Tre: I’ve been where I failed is like in a Ralph loop where you are. You’re dangerously set. permissions or something to it and that’s not awesome either. So you can do that in a Docker sandbox, but in a Docker sandbox it doesn’t have SSH, it doesn’t have your MCP connection, it doesn’t have as much. Because I would love for it to isolate things, so you have a sandbox, you don’t need a work tree, but you should create a branch, you should connect your progress to this click up thing. I’m not quite there yet through our full process, but it’s really interesting
[00:51:40] RobbieTheWagner: Hmm. Yeah.
[00:52:02] Carlo Tre: the way that you can move faster through these normal pseudo-agile practices. I think we kind of kill agile in a lot of ways.
[00:52:10] RobbieTheWagner: Did you see what Adam was talking about with Vibe Kanban?
[00:52:16] Carlo Tre: ⁓ I saw he posted a link and no.
[00:52:20] RobbieTheWagner: So it’s basically you can, I’m unclear on the details. I think you have to create the Kanban board, like the tickets. And then you’re like, yo, just execute this project. And it’s like, what if like GitHub projects or whatever was just that? Like you could just be like, build the, you you just spec it out and then you go, you know what? Done, just implement it.
[00:52:27] Carlo Tre: Sure. Well… That’s what Matt Pocock does apparently with his Ralph loops. So he’ll have them connect to GitHub issues and just loop through issues. I’m kinda thinking about trying to figure out how to do that on Shepard.
[00:52:54] RobbieTheWagner: Hmm. Does that not get expensive?
[00:53:00] Carlo Tre: I don’t know what kind of he used to he works for a versatile or did work for ourselves. I don’t know probably not for him
[00:53:06] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, so he’s not doing his own courses. He has a job job now, is what you’re saying.
[00:53:13] Carlo Tre: I thought he did work for Verzal, so I don’t know.
[00:53:18] RobbieTheWagner: I don’t know. I haven’t talked to him since we talked to him on the show, so I don’t know.
[00:53:21] Carlo Tre: I don’t know, I’ve been drinking brown and I haven’t had it recently, so…
[00:53:24] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah, I haven’t thrown the rest of mine on the floor. Interestingly, it like I have this.
[00:53:30] Carlo Tre: I’ve been throwing it into my liver. Let’s see how that works.
[00:53:34] RobbieTheWagner: I have this black desk mat and it spilled on that and everywhere the whiskey touched, all the color is gone from the desk mat, which is interesting.
[00:53:37] Carlo Tre: Hmm. What’s that doing to my insides right now? Making them last forever.
[00:53:46] RobbieTheWagner: Did you see that? Do you see that experiment someone did where they had like a Petri dish of like bacteria and they put one drop of whiskey on it and just all died instantly and like Taylor poindexter like reposted it was like this is why I drink whiskey.
[00:53:58] Carlo Tre: Mmm. I have seen that. well she seems quite healthy so you know food for thought there stop eating well never mind i was gonna say stop eating beefaroni but your posh ass doesn’t do that
[00:54:07] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t need beef or only. Did buy some they have where’s Waldo’s Spaghetti Oh’s now got some of those for Phoenix. He’s very into where’s Waldo so.
[00:54:22] Carlo Tre: Hmm. You fed him cancer? How do you feel about it?
[00:54:30] RobbieTheWagner: Well, I didn’t feed it to him yet. He doesn’t like any foods. Like we’re just now getting him to eat dino nuggies. So like I’m like just eat kid foods that are unhealthy. Like I don’t as long as it’s not bread like just. ⁓
[00:54:37] Carlo Tre: Yeah. Yeah, I don’t care as long as you’re as like eating just fucking eat at this point. Let’s go to McDonald’s again I don’t know shit least you’ll put something Yeah
[00:54:46] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, won’t even do that. Although he is interested now that I told him that Happy Meals have toys. He was like, tell me more about the toys.
[00:54:55] Carlo Tre: For sure. It’s like you get the toy once you finish the four nuggies. Yeah. Yep. for sure. Yeah, they don’t touch that shit until they finish the primary, you know, nutrient source or whatever. Yeah, at least our McDonald’s is a little healthier, but we still do McDonald’s sometimes. It’s amazing that I moved. It tastes better, I’m not gonna lie. It is better. There’s a couple of weird things. It’s better.
[00:54:59] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, well, that’s a good point. Yeah, take the toy away until they’re done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but they have to use real ingredients at least. Yeah. So I started watching, let me see, I’m going to get it wrong. 11 22 63. Have you watched that? OK, so it’s a apparently a Stephen King book that was turned into a Netflix show, but it’s about like time traveling like this guy’s supposed to time travel back to prevent JFK’s assassination.
[00:55:28] Carlo Tre: yeah, I see that. I don’t know what that means. I don’t even know what that means. Hmm.
[00:55:49] RobbieTheWagner: But anyway, the point I was going to bring up is like, they’re like, when you go back in time, like one of the things you’re really going to notice is the food is so good. It’s like, yeah, because it’s before we had like all this fake bullshit.
[00:56:02] Carlo Tre: Yeah, right. The stuff your grandma made doesn’t exist anymore because the flower is different. You know…
[00:56:06] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They have an Italian flower now that’s like from ⁓ the only non-gmo like like not ⁓ Hasn’t been altered wheat and so they’re like the bag is like this size like a normal flowers like this size and it’s like this size and it’s like eight dollars and normal flower is four and I’m like
[00:56:14] Carlo Tre: ⁓ the double zero. Hmm. Hmm. It’s like 79 cents here. Like the basic Farina. ⁓
[00:56:31] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. because it’s not shipped anywhere. They just package it. ⁓ I was like, you know what? I’d love to do that because then it’s all not modified stuff and theoretically healthier. Because you can go to Italy, you need as much pasta as you want and not gain weight. So it’s definitely a thing. But we ain’t got the money for that.
[00:56:35] Carlo Tre: Nah, double zero. Yeah, yeah, it’s just here. It’s already here. Yeah, it’s not just the walking for sure. No, ain’t nobody got time for that. Listen, if you just half the size of your house, then maybe you have the money for that. It’s all just choices, bro.
[00:57:05] RobbieTheWagner: Well, I mean, you have to have two offices in a wine cellar. Like, you can’t not have that.
[00:57:09] Carlo Tre: Yeah, just like if you’re gonna be middle class and in Trump’s America then you need Two offices at a wine cellar. You have a gym too. So don’t fucking you know undersell yourself No, I mean You never need to leave the house, which is actually kind of my dream Like if I move back and move into Virginia next to you and I will have all of those things Because I don’t want to leave the fucking house like who cares
[00:57:18] RobbieTheWagner: You Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there’s a house down the street that will still be for sale if you move back. They’re trying to sell it for like, I don’t know, three point eight million or something. like.
[00:57:43] Carlo Tre: Probably. It’ll probably be like six million, but like super devalued by the time, you know, I would move back.
[00:57:53] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, no, the most expensive house in the neighborhood, I think, is like 1.9. And it’s like, there’s this like 3.8 or something. And I’m like, guys, this is not going to work for you. Yeah.
[00:58:04] Carlo Tre: What are you doing? Yeah, yeah, good luck with that. What market are you looking at? you remember you remember what it was like four years ago and you’re trying to keep it, you know, it’s it’s just not happening. Enjoy.
[00:58:10] RobbieTheWagner: I don’t know. Yeah, I think the market’s going to just tank at some point,
[00:58:22] Carlo Tre: I think it probably will. And then we’ll have a slow burn up to normal. That’s why I’m kinda… I don’t know. Yeah, that’s interesting. I’m really glad that I’m mostly out of the property game except for the one that I hate the most. So that’s fun. Yeah, I’m a… Terrible. From bad to worse. ⁓
[00:58:26] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, hopefully they don’t change our school district because that’s like the only thing keeping property values up here so. Yes, how’s that going? ⁓ no.
[00:58:49] Carlo Tre: I mean, just constantly. So we have a property in Tucson to remind those who may not have seen previous episodes. We have a property in Tucson. mother-in-law lives there. We have it.
[00:58:59] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Check out the episode where Chuck was working with the water heater. It’s a good one.
[00:59:07] Carlo Tre: yeah, where it explodes and burns my body. That’s amazing. That’s super fun. Yeah, so that’s my time there, like constantly. I mean, I don’t know. Have I talked, have I spoken on here about how because of my in-laws, there’s a lien on the property? Have I ever talked about that? The IRS has a lien on it.
[00:59:28] RobbieTheWagner: I don’t know if you talked about it on the show. You definitely mentioned it to me. ⁓
[00:59:32] Carlo Tre: I mean, okay, so I don’t care. Like full transparency, ⁓ my former ⁓ surgeon, father-in-law, is not anymore and many other things occurred because of that. And one of those is my, okay, I was advised to put my mother-in-law on the property to help get a better rate. And then so she’s like on the property loan.
[00:59:59] RobbieTheWagner: Did it help?
[01:00:00] Carlo Tre: I mean, I guess they told me it did. They were like, you know, it’s still six five because it was an investment property at the time. Now it is a primary residence because I don’t live anywhere else in America, but I can’t refinance it because the IRS has a lien on it due to unpaid back taxes because a surgeon didn’t pay his taxes. Simple as that. We’re working through that problem. And so.
[01:00:31] Carlo Tre: Anyway, so there’s that. And then we were like, Airbnb, because it was sold as a great Airbnb and kind of wasn’t. And then we had like some tenants and then other tenants and then more tenants and then no tenants. I also hate Airbnbs. So it’s sort of like the larger one has been an Airbnb for a while and that’s been OK. And then we had like my mother-in-law and other tenant and the smaller one and ⁓ he’s moving out now.
[01:00:44] RobbieTheWagner: I hate tenants. Hate. Yeah.
[01:01:01] Carlo Tre: So cool. Hate it all. Hate it all.
[01:01:06] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah, there’s nothing that will tell you like how shitty humans can be more than being some sort of landlord or having to deal with any kind of tenants because they are just like, you’re just like, bro, like this is common sense. Like, why are you being this big of an asshole about, you know, X, Y, Z? And they’re like, well, it’s like, I hate, hate that you exist. Like, this is the worst.
[01:01:27] Carlo Tre: Ha ha. What I’m getting is like, hey, I’m gonna move in two weeks. I’m like, well, you know, have two more months on your lease. It’s like, it’d be real cool if you just let me out now. And I’d be like, it’d be real cool if you just gave me money right now. Like, what do you? Yeah, you can do whatever you want, but your financial obligation is this.
[01:01:39] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, so you’re going to pay it. Yeah, you can leave, but just pay for two months right now. Yeah, well, we have learned from having a company and owning a building that like it doesn’t matter what the paper says. If it’s less than like 20 grand that you owe, ain’t nobody paying that like now. I don’t know if this guy knows that. But like, you know, if you know that the system is stacked to where like no one’s going to pay for lawyers to figure that out, then you just leave kind of like when Comcast goes, hey, you owe us a shitload of money. You go, no, I don’t. And they’re like, ⁓ yeah, you do. And I’m like, OK.
[01:02:09] Carlo Tre: Mmm, I’m hoping.
[01:02:26] RobbieTheWagner: Come at me. ⁓
[01:02:26] Carlo Tre: Good luck. I’m gonna dissolve that fake company I had anyway. Enjoy.
[01:02:31] RobbieTheWagner: Yep. Yeah, I keep getting automated calls. It’s like, this is the Comcast billing department looking for your accounts payable or whatever. And I’m like, yeah, I don’t know what company you’re looking for. Never heard of ShipShape.
[01:02:40] Carlo Tre: Spam, spam, no. Ship Shape Holdings or what were you looking for? This is not Ship Shape Holdings. Yeah, Ship Shape Motors, I’d call them. Go ahead. That’s a like shell company, I’ve ever seen one.
[01:02:49] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, ship-shaped motors probably. ⁓ Yeah.
[01:02:59] Carlo Tre: Alright… Anyway…
[01:03:00] RobbieTheWagner: Okay, yeah, we are our overtime here. Does there anything else on here that we need to talk about? ⁓ No, not really.
[01:03:07] Carlo Tre: Need? Need is, you know, I mean, I want to talk about video games. I want to talk about games. What’s the Steam machine going to do and how is it going to affect gaming as a whole? I’m very excited about this. Yeah, you don’t know the Steam machine? Holy fuck. They’re putting out their own like, I get that. ⁓ And I have like out and, you know, rogue stuff and I have the rogue alley versus the Steam deck and whatever else.
[01:03:19] RobbieTheWagner: Is this a new Steam thing? No, I don’t like steam. I thought they already had a… I thought they already had something like this.
[01:03:40] Carlo Tre: That, no, it’s a console slash gaming PC. What will be really interesting is like the price point. So like people have said $600 bucks, $1,000, whatever else. I don’t know, I think this is like great for gaming though, at least for…
[01:03:58] RobbieTheWagner: So why not just buy an Xbox though, if it’s a thousand? Is it better quality?
[01:04:03] Carlo Tre: because it’s a closed platform. It’s a closed platform. What do you get on Xbox?
[01:04:07] RobbieTheWagner: But you have to play most games on Windows anyway. So like what I’ve been doing is the.
[01:04:11] Carlo Tre: Well, this is Steam OS. This is Steam OS, which the Steam Deck is Linux based and Steam OS probably has to be. And so much stuff goes through Steam. I don’t know. I feel like it’s a…
[01:04:24] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, but it runs in some kind of emulator or something because most games are just made for Windows.
[01:04:29] Carlo Tre: Yeah, well, I think this is a win.
[01:04:32] RobbieTheWagner: They’re just running, they sell you a thousand dollar computer that runs wine and it ⁓ boots up the windows. Do people still use wine? That was like what we used to use like.
[01:04:39] Carlo Tre: Maybe they… I remember that, yeah, I remember that. I don’t know. But it looks very intriguing. So PlayStation as acquiesced and those Spider-Man games came out on Steam. which I got from my son and he was like, my god, this is amazing. I’m like, yeah, this feels like the next stage. Most of the games you want to play are probably going to be Steam released, but you can also like…
[01:04:57] RobbieTheWagner: really? Well, I’m team Dax in that I ain’t never buying another hardware product. Like, I’m just going to stream the games. He streams everything. He has a MacBook that he like does his development on, but he streams a Linux machine to his MacBook or whatever.
[01:05:24] Carlo Tre: All right, do you think that’s gonna work for gaming? I wanna see that.
[01:05:27] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, yeah, yes, he uses it for games. I mean, it didn’t work super well the few times I’ve tried it, but I feel like it has to be like it’ll get good enough at some point. Like if you have five gigabit ethernet.
[01:05:37] Carlo Tre: I want to see. Gaming is the outlier because it’s resource intensive.
[01:05:42] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. And I guess like if you have any sort of hiccup, like if you’re playing against someone, like it’s competitive and you have any sort of internet hiccup, it will just not work.
[01:05:48] Carlo Tre: Yeah, yeah. It’s so annoying that like my alley when I was playing handheld, I was playing ⁓ FIFA and it was like, okay, but the frame rates had to be kind of low. And then anything online was like fucking garbage. So I bought an external GPU just to do that. And then was like, well, if I want to play any modern games, I’m like 10 years behind. So it’s not hard to please me. I got some, ⁓ I do like that all these marketplaces have these games for like four bucks here and there. I bought a bunch of Batman games and all that stuff. And they work pretty decently because I’m 10 years behind. Play any modern game like FC 26. And I’m like, okay, I need the GPU. Okay, gotcha.
[01:06:25] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[01:06:39] Carlo Tre: So.
[01:06:39] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, I have the Xbox game pass, so you just pay for that every month and get all the games, ⁓ And I think that works OK.
[01:06:45] Carlo Tre: Yeah. kids don’t need to go to college. It’s fine. It’s overrated.
[01:06:53] RobbieTheWagner: Well, college isn’t going to be a thing by the time they go, No. I think it’s I would love to see. mean, I think this is the best case scenario of everything just going back to local apprenticeships like you’re going to learn how to be a bee farmer. You’re to do it from a farmer. You’re going to learn how to like fix. It won’t be cars because cars will all be electric. There won’t be a like internal combustion motor that you need to figure out how to fix. ⁓
[01:06:56] Carlo Tre: I don’t think so either. I think 5-10 years. That’s shit. Heh heh.
[01:07:22] RobbieTheWagner: I don’t know, whatever the thing is, I think it’s gonna be like local little jobs like that or just a ton of people farming through agentic AI like trying to get everything to just sling out whatever and I don’t know, I don’t love it but we’ll hope for the best.
[01:07:36] Carlo Tre: Yeah. You ain’t gotta love it, but it is what it is. Alright.
[01:07:40] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. All right. We’re at time. So thanks everyone for listening. If you liked it, subscribe. Do it. Subscribe right now and leave reviews. Yeah. Leave a review that says, I hated it. One star. Would love that.
[01:07:51] Carlo Tre: Click, click, click. Say, this would be great, but Robbie, not so much.
[01:08:02] RobbieTheWagner: Alright. Alright, peace.
[01:08:04] Carlo Tre: Non c’è male. Non c’è male.