[00:01:21] RobbieTheWagner: Hey what’s up everybody, welcome to Whiskey Web and whatnot with your hosts Robbie the Wagner and Adam Thomas Argyle the nerd. What’s going on Adam?

[00:01:31] Adam Argyle: What’s up y’all? I’m feeling good, how are you?

[00:01:34] RobbieTheWagner: I’m good as well. is once again, Margarita Thursday, which I just call it this to make my wife upset because it is clearly either Thirsty Thursday or Margarita Monday, but I like to do the dumb one that doesn’t make any sense.

[00:01:48] Adam Argyle: nice, we do Woody Wednesdays, we go to little Woody’s and then we used to do like, Fuh-Ry-Days? That was really stretchy, you know? Now it’s just pizza and Pokemon, that one always stayed good. It’s not a Friday, but yeah, Fridays can start with P, it’s okay.

[00:01:58] RobbieTheWagner: Love it, love it. Yeah, yeah, these things are hard. Alright, so I’m excited for the whiskey we have today. This is a special edition. Where’s my camera? Whistle Pig Liquid Death collaboration. I’m a big Liquid Death fan. I really like their Dr Pepper flavor. I what they call it. Dr Death, maybe. Yeah, so this is a wheat whiskey. is 85 % wheat and 15 % barley.

[00:02:21] Adam Argyle: Ooh, I should try that. I love Dr. Pepper.

[00:02:31] RobbieTheWagner: They use liquid death mountain water to proof it down, which like hopefully they got a discount on it because liquid death is not cheap. They’re like popping all the cans and pouring them in there. Yeah, it’s 86 proof. I don’t know what the age is, but like you get the idea. Liquid death collaboration looks cool.

[00:02:50] Adam Argyle: Mmm, smells sweet. Smells, ooh, fruity. Yummy.

[00:02:56] RobbieTheWagner: Okay, yeah, I can never tell like sometimes there’s a little funk and I can’t tell if like my glass is dirty or If it’s the whiskey Yeah

[00:03:04] Adam Argyle: It’s got baby stuff in there. Yeah. Shouldn’t have mixed Similac in my ⁓ nice Norland glass. Why’d I do that?

[00:03:13] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, I do I feel like I smell strawberry Strawberry cinnamon, perhaps. I’m gonna taste it.

[00:03:21] Adam Argyle: man, I’m getting like a berry medley. It’s nice, really light spice, smooth and soft.

[00:03:25] RobbieTheWagner: Ooh, that is yummy.

[00:03:29] Adam Argyle: ⁓ coating of my tongue from the front to the back so I got like the spice and then just ⁓ the saturation as it spreads across. ⁓

[00:03:37] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, this is very good. I guess maybe some of the similar notes that I like from Rise maybe come through in this, because it’s all like grains and I guess is corn a grain? No, I guess. Yeah, so like it doesn’t have corn, which I feel like makes it ⁓ tastier, like taking the corn out.

[00:03:49] Adam Argyle: It is not. Or, I don’t know. Mm. I’m glad there’s still some spice. I was like a little spicy bite and then ⁓ it’s pretty low on the proof. Do you pay for proof? Like, are you like, if I’m going to spend money, it better be high proof. Do you care about that? No, I thought, yeah.

[00:04:04] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm. No, no, I just care about, yeah, I care about interesting things and it being like, if the distiller wants me to try it at 135 proof or whatever, like, okay, like I’m down, but I’m not seeking that out. I usually like it to be a little higher than like 80 proof or whatever, like whatever the standard is. So this is a little bit higher, I think, right? was, yeah, 86. So it’s got a little more burn. But yeah, I think it’s very balanced, like doesn’t burn too much. Nice spice, fruity notes. Pretty good.

[00:04:43] Adam Argyle: Pretty good, I’m happy. So yeah, what’s your rating? Robbie with the rating.

[00:04:44] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Well, I don’t know what’s our scale. Do you remember what our scale is?

[00:04:50] Adam Argyle: zero to eight. it’s zero, you’re like throw that shit away. If it’s an eight, you’re like clear the shelves. I want this forever. Just put it in my belly. And then, you know, anything in the middle. Yeah, what you got?

[00:04:54] RobbieTheWagner: you ⁓ yeah, I don’t have anything bad to say about it. But it also is maybe not like my favorite one ever. It’s so hard. We’ve had so many. I’m just going to say flat seven.

[00:05:13] Adam Argyle: Flat seven, solid. was thinking six, six and a half, because yeah, it’s ⁓ solid. I like it. I will have it again. I do like that it’s kind of soft and sweet. has a, maybe that’s the low, it’s the low proof is probably the softness, huh? And the mountain water, yeah, that matters. ⁓ I was reading about this too. ⁓ It was ⁓ aged in a coffin.

[00:05:23] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. and the mountain water. Wait, was it really?

[00:05:37] Adam Argyle: It was real. So they started out in an American oak like regular barrel, but they move it from a barrel into a coffin, which is why it has the coffin symbol on it. And it’s called gravestock. So that’s why it’s called a gravestock is there’s an American oak coffin that appeared and they’re like teasing that it’s like.

[00:05:46] RobbieTheWagner: Interesting. yeah. It’s final months resting in peace in a 380 gallon charred American oak casket then was proofed with liquid death mountain water. Wow. Okay. Love it. Love it. The dedication to detail. Yeah. Whistle Pig has got money to burn.

[00:06:00] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Pretty fun, yeah, I like that. Yeah, tell me about the process. I wanna be the person that made that. dude, speaking of like death and American wood, here, check out this banjo I bought myself for my 40th birthday. It’s already beat up a zombie. It’s covered in blood. It’s covered in little zombie icons. There’s like a knife through his head there. There’s someone’s foot. ⁓ It’s called the Zombie Killer and it is very cool. Here, let’s see.

[00:06:24] RobbieTheWagner: Nice. Love it. nice.

[00:06:42] Adam Argyle: I don’t ever play this way, so it’s weird. I’m gonna try play Mario Nope, I’m not gonna be able to do it standing here like that. I’m embarrass myself. It does sound good, it’s great.

[00:06:51] RobbieTheWagner: Hey, it sounds good. Having only heard you play banjo like lo fi trying to throw it up against the mic. feel like this one sounds better than the other one you had.

[00:07:03] Adam Argyle: Cool, I’m hoping this is my heirloom like dad’s dead, but don’t worry. We’ve got a zombie killer banjo So he’ll live on forever with that sick banjo

[00:07:08] RobbieTheWagner: You It’d be cool if they like reinforced it where they’re like splatters are so you could like actually hit it on stuff and it’d be fine.

[00:07:19] Adam Argyle: That would be cool. Did you see this saw that was around the edge too? So the ring, there’s like a tone ring, but around the ring is a saw, like straight up edges of a saw. It’s super cool. You cut my finger. ⁓ I should put some of my real blood on there just cause if it’s an heirloom.

[00:07:28] RobbieTheWagner: ⁓ that sounds dangerous. Oh man, I used to bleed on my guitar so much when I would play shows, because I would like hit it wrong and catch my like nail or something and just like be just pouring blood all over the guitar for like 10 minutes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We have to find some recordings of you in some bands because I was saying we should do. I don’t know if we get Chuck or somebody else to do it, but we need people to listen to like a little bit of band I was in a little bit of band you were in. See if they can say who was who. I think that’d be a fun game.

[00:07:43] Adam Argyle: yeah. So cool, yep. I mean, I feel like it’s gonna be kind of obvious, but I don’t know. Maybe people don’t know the past emo me and they’ll be like, who’s this young kid singing?

[00:08:13] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, yeah, I mean if you if you don’t know like which ⁓ part of the band you were I guess is like maybe also like Yeah, well I did do some singing ⁓ But like yeah, so we’ll see we’ll see we got to finish the Developer band as well sometime. I want to do some covers

[00:08:20] Adam Argyle: ⁓ so you didn’t sing. Okay. Okay, that’s cool. so many things on the stinking to-do list. It drives me nuts. My to-do list is so big. There’s like stuff on there that I’m like, I would like to get to that. And I’m like, yeah, but there’s stuff I haven’t done for the past three days that I need to do. So I’ll be an adult, I guess. ⁓ Man.

[00:08:46] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yep, that’s what I unfortunately pick on the daily, but maybe one day we won’t have to pick that.

[00:08:57] Adam Argyle: I like ⁓ the irony that I texted you to us like we need to spend some time automating AI to do some of our tasks so that we can have more time. And I’m like, wait, that’s a chicken and egg. I’m like, if I don’t have the time, I can’t create the automations to save me the time. I’m like.

[00:09:08] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Well, agents are great for that because like they might not get it for me every time, but I can at least be like, hey, I’d like this and then come back later. And if it happened to do it, then I’ve got it. Like ⁓ I did that with. ⁓

[00:09:24] Adam Argyle: Yeah, tell me about Claude Cowork. Yeah, did you try that?

[00:09:27] RobbieTheWagner: I have not, but before we jump into that, I just wanted to say like I have I’ve automated one thing now and it’s not 100 % automated, but I made ⁓ this thing. I was like, hey, ⁓ I think I used warp on this one, not open code, because open code had the thing where you can’t use your clawed tokens anymore. Yeah, but I was using warp and I was like, hey, build me this thing. It can be swift because like it’s just going to be me that uses it so it can be Mac only. I don’t care. ⁓

[00:09:43] Adam Argyle: Yeah, rogue pool, rogue pool, yeah.

[00:09:58] RobbieTheWagner: I want to put in a link to a whiskey.fm episode and I want you to pull the title, the show notes and the transcripts, pull like five to 10 topics, then take those topics and make them into like concrete things you could make an image of, not just like react hooks, like something that’s like ⁓ a react hook doing it. Like, I don’t know, like make it like a thing that could be drawn, then give it all back and like, give me an image that I can use as the art for the episode. Because I’m trying to make like, I spend too much time on those for no reason. So I’m like, hey.

[00:10:34] Adam Argyle: They’re super cool, dude. It’s not no reason. I love those things. Every single one of them. I’m like, dude, the TLC in this is awesome.

[00:10:40] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, but like I don’t have the time for that. So they might get less good though. They’ll probably have less people in them be more topic based Because I used to like try to describe the person that was in the episode and have it like draw what they would look like or whatever ⁓ But now I’m just gonna be like hey, what we talked about like boom We got it like better than having no art for sure. So I’m trying that out working. Okay so far

[00:10:47] Adam Argyle: Mmm. Cool, I’ve used warp to create an automation for me on my personal blog so that every time I drop an image into the image folder, it sends it through my, I have like two phases of processing that I do, as well as generate the front matter for me. So that was like a really cool one to give to AI, because the ins and outs are so clear. ⁓ And then I saw something this last week too, that I was very impressed by, which is someone was ⁓ making a whole website, a data-driven entire website. So let’s say you’ve got,

[00:11:21] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:33] Adam Argyle: but let’s just pick music. You want to do a website for the top 20 songs of 2026, whatever. So you go get the data, you stick it in, you start a markdown file and you’re basically, build out this pretty large prompt. It’s almost like a big PRD, but in the middle of the PRD, this person stuck a API key to CREA and to ⁓ Gemini, Nano Banana and said, Hey, I have no media for this site. use these keys and create images that are engaging and ⁓ help with the site or whatever. And then they took this humongous prompt, which, and yeah, generated images for the whole thing, which was, anyway, I thought that was cool, but they pitted it against a Ralph loop versus not a Ralph loop. And the Ralph loop ⁓ was arguably not as good, although it was really splitting. Some people were like, the Ralph loop one is better. And I was like, I kind of liked the first one better.

[00:12:25] RobbieTheWagner: Mmm.

[00:12:30] Adam Argyle: They were both really good though. The PRD was just so well written with all these little details. Like I’m saying about like the image generation and these API keys. I was very impressed. Also very intimidated. was like, ⁓ geez, this site looks awesome. And it got made for this person within minutes. I’m like crap.

[00:12:49] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think sites everything is doing better and better at I think images are still kind of hit or miss like it especially if you tell it not to do a thing because if you’ve said the words if you’re like do not Put facial hair on this person is like well you said the words facial hair So I’m gonna put so much facial hair like you can’t tell it not to you have to describe what you want and just omit the things you don’t want or it will freak out ⁓ but yeah, the next thing I want to build is like ⁓

[00:12:59] Adam Argyle: You That is funny.

[00:13:18] RobbieTheWagner: We need a thumbnail generator. So there’s one built into Riverside, which I’ve been trying for like YouTube thumbnails to be like. Like, know, like you need just the random guy with the weird face like and a title. And so it’s been doing those and it won’t change the text. I even asked, it was like, can you like make the text not just the first word highlighted in yellow and then the rest black and like give me different fonts and do different stuff like, absolutely. I have full control over that. And I was like, cool, can you like change it to this? And it was like, cool, I did it. And it was still the same thing. was like, clearly someone has baked this into your like base knowledge somewhere. ⁓

[00:13:55] Adam Argyle: Hey, that’s that AI harness stuff. We’ve talked about that. It was like Grok. I was, hey, Grok, I want you to make me a meme. Make me a spicy meme that pisses off developers. You know, like, I know you know what makes people mad and is spicy. Do it. And it was like, hooks. It had some comment about hooks. And then it could even spell react right in the image it made. I’m like, ah, you’re so stupid. This is bad.

[00:13:58] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah, yeah anything like that there isn’t a ton of source material on it has trouble with to like what I did I had a tweet series for like I don’t know if I was trying to do one a day or one a week or whatever it was it was unsustainable I was trying to do like dad jokes about programming and I was like alright AI I’ve got like 10 pretty good ones here like can you understand like how I did these and like try to use the same sort of wit and like and yeah and it was like

[00:14:45] Adam Argyle: Follow the patterns, Pattern Matcher. Yeah.

[00:14:49] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it gave me like a bunch more and they were all awful. So was like, God. All right. There’s just not enough people making dad jokes about programming. feel like so.

[00:14:58] Adam Argyle: ⁓ jeez. I tried to give a layup to it. So this is, yeah, I like to describe this as giving a layup to AI. You’re like, hey, I’m spelling out everything. You’re smart, right? Use your intelligence to learn from what I just taught you. And it’s like, it never works. So one of the things I have on the agenda here to talk about is ⁓ AIM, ⁓ which is just a trendy acronym. It’s not even true. What’s your AIM handle? ⁓

[00:15:20] RobbieTheWagner: AOL Instant Manager. You

[00:15:25] Adam Argyle: I’m trying to, well, I succeeded. Do you know what FLIP is from, that was made by Paul Lewis? The acronym First Last Invert Play, have you heard this?

[00:15:34] RobbieTheWagner: I don’t think so.

[00:15:36] Adam Argyle: It was a way for you in JavaScript to take an element that needs to, it’s like inline in the page, and now you’re gonna make it fixed position like over here. So if you’re listening everybody, I’m holding my hands up in two different places, and one hand is closed and one hand is open. All right, so anyway, there’s like an element needs to go into two states, and they’re both a natural state.

[00:15:49] RobbieTheWagner: You Can you tell me about sprites? Is one sprite entering? No, I’m sorry to derail. You keep going.

[00:15:59] Adam Argyle: ⁓ yeah. sprites. That’s good. ⁓ it’s all good. Okay. So you got element number one and you like click it and it needs to morph to the position ⁓ in position number two. And it’s not two different elements. It’s the same element needing to exist in two different layouts. And you want to animate it between these things and you want it to be a CSS transition so that it’s like interruptible and stuff like that. Okay. So Paul Lewis comes up with this ⁓ awesome, simple way to do it called flip and The F in flip is for first, you take the element where it is in the closed state ⁓ at the beginning, and you take a, it’s not a picture, but you get its bounding ⁓ qualities. You get like, what’s its top and its left? What’s its height and its width? What are all these different properties about? What’s its background color? And then you do the L, which is last. You actually put it into the new layout instantly ⁓ by just setting the properties and causing reflow. So then it goes into that end position. You take your ⁓ measurements again. and then you invert it, which means you put it back to the first position. And now that you know the first and then end position, you can interpolate between the two states and you get this really nice morph effect with JavaScript and a CSS transition. David Courchide, who we just had on a show recently, has done a ton of flip. He wrote an article on CSS. Flip is a very cool technique for very dynamic, meaningful morph transitions. And I last week figured out how to do it all in CSS using anchor positioning, ⁓ interpolate size, And crap, there’s one more feature. starting style. And so I did this. Yeah, well, I called it. AIM stands for Anchor Interpolated Morph. Because, okay, so if you think about it, like the first part was ⁓ finding out the measurements of the element. Its height, its width, and its position. Anchor can do that. You just set that first element. You’re like, hey, you’re an anchor element. And so now anything else can know the positions and bounds of that element.

[00:17:29] RobbieTheWagner: That’s not him. Oh, okay.

[00:17:52] Adam Argyle: And then you can take the next element, which is just in its natural resting place, and then say starting styles, start your styles from where this other element exists. So I’m able to make these elements morph from any element in anywhere on the screen ⁓ using CSS, because I can use Anchor to measure where they are. They know where they are naturally, and then they can morph from that position. Anyway, it’s really cool. So I’m figuring out how to do a FLIP with CSS and Anchor. So Anchor is really cool. And Anchor just went baseline in Firefox.

[00:18:14] RobbieTheWagner: That is cool. I was just about to ask, is it supported everywhere yet?

[00:18:25] Adam Argyle: I mean, it’s not like we can use it. It’s so funny. All these cool things come out. I’m like at work. can’t use it even even when it’s baseline at work. I’m like, I to support iOS 16.

[00:18:28] RobbieTheWagner: What? Wait, so where’s it not supported? because of older stuff. So I don’t… Once it’s supported everywhere, I don’t give a shit about the older stuff. Like if the newest browser that’s not like a Canary supports it, ship that. Like…

[00:18:35] Adam Argyle: Yeah, for me it’s like old iPhones. Nice. so you’re a big fan of baseline. My site kind of does that. Well, my site will early adopt all sorts of things. I’m willing to manage two versions or even just have a lame version and then a dope one. I’m like, that’s cool with me. But at work, we ⁓ can’t do that. like, it can’t be broken in the old one. And yeah, personal stuff.

[00:18:57] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, work is different. I’m talking about my personal stuff. I even did like, before it worked and like everything, like Chrome was the only thing I think and I was like, hey, it’s way smaller. Gonna ship it. Like, yeah, cause like there’s not that many people coming to my personal site or whatever. So I’m like, the people that are probably developers on like the latest Chrome, like it doesn’t, doesn’t matter. But yeah, I’m excited for the anchor stuff because I’ve been wanting to use that.

[00:19:07] Adam Argyle: Eww. That’s awesome. man. man, my site’s been getting hits.

[00:19:30] RobbieTheWagner: Like you can’t do everything just yet. You’re going to need like some polyfills or extra code or whatever to support. Like we’re using a floating UI ⁓ in Shepard to do like basically what anchor stuff does. ⁓ And I would like to replace that because it is big and it is like the biggest part of ⁓ the library as of right now. So I. it’s great. Yeah, no shade on them. I just like, you know, in the chase or.

[00:19:44] Adam Argyle: Yeah. It’s big. It’s also bad-ass, but yeah.

[00:19:59] RobbieTheWagner: not chase race to the smallest libraries. I’m trying to do that. And also I might replace felt with solid because okay, it’s felt five for whatever reason and rich is not helping with this. So rich, if you hear this, maybe we can make it better. But like it increased the bundle size by like 10 kilobytes or something. Like it went from like 17 to like 28 or like I guess that’s like 11. Yeah. And so I think what he was saying is like the

[00:20:18] Adam Argyle: Hmm. Is this felt four to five? went up?

[00:20:28] RobbieTheWagner: The WasteFelt 5 works is like the base part, I don’t know, God, I can’t think of words. The like, ⁓ the main part you’re shipping, like the little, what do you call that? The core, the core, the core is like bigger. ⁓ But then each component is smaller. And since we have like five components, we don’t benefit from that because like, it’s like if you had like a thousand component app, then you’d be like, my God, it’s so much smaller because like each component is smaller.

[00:20:50] Adam Argyle: Mmm.

[00:20:58] RobbieTheWagner: But we have five components. so like, it’s not smaller because the core is bigger, which I think is what we’re hitting. We are also still using the like, legacy don’t use this classes thing because like, because it’s, ⁓ it won’t let you send a reference to an element back out still. So I need some magic from someone who knows how to do that to fix that. ⁓ But I was like, yo AI, ⁓ this is pretty

[00:21:11] Adam Argyle: not runes, yeah.

[00:21:27] RobbieTheWagner: well tested, you want to convert it to solid for me? And it was like, dope. And it did. And it was back to like the size of Svelte 4. And I was like, ⁓ could ship. so ⁓ I’m interested, but I don’t want to like, I like philosophically like Svelte. So I don’t want to like move away from Svelte because just because like I want to make for sure that it’s like what I have to do before I do it.

[00:21:52] Adam Argyle: Yeah, good call. you know, the kind of goes into one of our other topics. It’s like you want to make the smallest library. How about your library doesn’t even ship code. See, did you see this post I put in the discord as an article somebody wrote?

[00:22:02] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. ⁓ No, were they how if it doesn’t ship code, what does it do?

[00:22:13] Adam Argyle: Well, let’s talk about that. They ship the specs and ⁓ all the expectations. So it’s basically shipping instructions for an LLM. So here’s the thing. This person shipped a library that basically does relative dates, you know, like five seconds ago or 20, 20 days ago, and it’s all localized. does all, it does all the things like a huge date functions library would do. However, it ships no code. It just ships the great spec.

[00:22:19] RobbieTheWagner: ⁓ Okay.

[00:22:42] Adam Argyle: and instructions and expectations so that an LLM can do it in any language. And so this person’s like, I made a library that works across Elixir and Ruby and ⁓ Rust and whatever, because it’s not, ⁓ it didn’t prescribe to a language. It just is a spec. And I thought this was super interesting because I’m very pro spec driven development. And this was the first time I saw someone to kind of do it at a micro level where they’re like, yeah, I’ll just ship all this stuff as a light.

[00:22:53] RobbieTheWagner: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:23:12] Adam Argyle: This is kind of awesome. The only thing that’s like, there are downsides to it. Like you can’t really log bugs against the library, which also maybe that’s an upside. I’m like, no one can log bugs against me. That shit rules.

[00:23:25] RobbieTheWagner: Well, you still could. mean, it’s not a like, you know, can’t read whatever of undefined bug, but it’s like, ⁓ you know, the spec is maybe a little wrong in this spot. Like I want to reword it like, yeah.

[00:23:32] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Add some tests for this case that the AI keeps screwing up. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:42] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, so I think that’s where we’re going because ⁓ people are already not even interviewing with code at all. They’re just like, hey, show me how you can prompt and let’s see how productive you can be. I don’t care how you do it. ⁓ Jake,

[00:23:57] Adam Argyle: Yep, Shopify is revamping and updating their interview stuff. What’s up, dude?

[00:24:02] RobbieTheWagner: He’s chewing up a box. He says, I know you’re up here ignoring me.

[00:24:09] Adam Argyle: I can smell the dog breath through the camera, something about Shopify is updating their their interview stuff too. And I was asking and I had and I have my own answers to this, but like, what if someone shows up to the interview and they just ⁓ Ralph Wiggum loop the whole question or what if they take it, ⁓ give it to we were talking last week about Gaston.

[00:24:12] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, yeah. Sorry, you were saying? Time them out Shopify.

[00:24:36] Adam Argyle: They just give it to Gastown. They’re like, hey, mayor of Gastown, here’s an interview. Why don’t you just solve it? And then they just sit back and they twiddle their thumbs. So hey, what do you want to talk about while all my agents do all this interview? Do we reward that person? Do we not reward the person? So there’s all these different scenarios now that we’re, it all depends. Yeah, so basically we don’t want anybody showing up that just prompts the whole time and can’t explain anything that’s going on. It’s a bad sign.

[00:24:45] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah. It depends. Or do you though? I mean, this this is where I think we’re going is like there’s going to be some percentage of people on. OK, I’m going to shut Jake out once. All right, edit that out. Somebody editing this later. OK. So there’s going to be some percentage of people who are just like innately savants at prompting. Right. So like if they’re for some reason just really good at controlling all A.I. and they get really good results that work really well every time. Do you care if that person understands anything about the code? If they’re shipping insane amounts of really good stuff that people who do know about code go, wow, that’s good stuff. Like I would say

[00:25:42] Adam Argyle: Hmm. You’re right. I hate that, but it seems very fair in terms of like they’re producing the thing we want. The output is desirable. They can’t explain it, but who cares? They can explain why their prompts are good or yeah.

[00:25:42] RobbieTheWagner: No. ⁓ Yeah. It’s like art. Like if you make good art, you’re probably like, hey, don’t I don’t know how I do it. I just go like, bah, and it’s good. Like some. then again, some people, some artists who are like classically trained are like, I know all of those different strokes and I like do it this way. And like, you know, like I think there’s. Yeah, there’s room for both, and I think it’s not as much of a science as we were led to believe. There’s a lot of art.

[00:26:08] Adam Argyle: Touche. Well yeah, they’re mixing their own colors, right?

[00:26:24] RobbieTheWagner: to coding and making an, especially in web development, like in a purely backend runs on your computer app or something. There’s not as much art to that, because it’s more just like input output. But there’s a lot of gray area and stuff that has any kind of UI.

[00:26:43] Adam Argyle: Yeah. I mean, this is all very prospect too, because then the, cause the code we’re just moving so quickly towards the code matters less and less, which also comes in another one of the talking points, which I think we’ve briefly done before, which is, does, types even matter? Does having a database matter? Because if a database is a layer of indirection for all your data and AI doesn’t give a crap about that, AI can just build a site off of local files and it can write to files. And then you have no dependencies. Like how much, and where is this going to end where

[00:27:02] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:12] Adam Argyle: code is just completely irrelevant in favor of prompting and spec authoring. I even think the spec side is even cooler. Like Toby at Shopify has a lot of great ideals and guidelines and just like things that guide him in general. And so you could kind of take a lot of that stuff, codify it into like the heart of the specs of your company and then have all these additional people go build on top of those and elaborate and then your whole

[00:27:16] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. of

[00:27:42] Adam Argyle: kind of system is a manifestation of your ethos and your services kind of combined. And then you combine that with brand and like a design system and some other things. And you’re really kind of reaching a new level of ⁓ just producing software where the code doesn’t matter. It matters more about the core that you were talking about earlier isn’t the core of the framework. It’s like the core of like, why are we doing stuff becomes more important than what are we making? And that I’ve always liked the why over what.

[00:28:00] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:12] Adam Argyle: ⁓ So I’m, anyway, dude is wild. Can you slow down please? I’m exhausted.

[00:28:16] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. I wish it would slow down. This we were talking about this at work is why I put this ⁓ this bullet point on here because we’re just now in like a ⁓ nine or 10 year old code base adding some TypeScript in which is always hard in an old code base with lots of cruft. And we were basically kind of having a philosophical discussion around like what do we want to recommend as the way to do TypeScript? Right. Because you can do it a few ways. You can have like One where it’s like, yeah, I want everything to be super strict. Like if you type a file, I don’t want to ever see an any. I want everything to be perfect. I don’t want to ever use a type from that that’s wrong. There’s another philosophy that’s like, well, I don’t care about most of this because it’s pretty trivial, but this one thing is really hairy. I want to like type that and then I want the rest to be any. I don’t care. ⁓ And we were just kind of talking our way through like, what do want to do? How do we approach converting the code base? And then we were kind of like, wait, So you’ve got, you know, thousands and thousands of files. could take years to convert. Maybe you can do a code mod or some AI stuff to like make it pretty quick. I don’t know. We’re, you know, in the fact finding phase right now, but we’re like, but what is the point anyway? Because if we’re going to like, like the, an alternative to converting anything at all to TypeScript, what if you spend a lot of time investing in your guardrails for AI and you were like, Hey,

[00:29:25] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[00:29:38] RobbieTheWagner: everyone on like all these other teams who is maybe not a senior or doesn’t know the full code base or whatever, like use this when you’re writing code and it will keep you from doing dumb stuff that like TypeScript would also have saved you from, but like we don’t care about TypeScript anymore. We just want you to like write everything through this. It’ll check and make sure like you’re not doing that. And then TypeScript doesn’t need to exist except for if you fully typed it all too, then AI could go way faster because it could be sure about being like I know all these types are for sure this way. So like there’s still some benefits, but it was kind of like, we’re probably never going to do that because why would we spend a year of like a developer’s time when AI can just kind of save us.

[00:30:23] Adam Argyle: man, I’m in a code base all day right now. It’s over a million lines of TypeScript. No ennies. Everything’s typed. ⁓ Well, I mean…

[00:30:29] RobbieTheWagner: I love it. Jealous.

[00:30:34] Adam Argyle: There’s just so many trade-offs. Like, okay, first off, AI is not wildly empowered by this. It’s equally as hindered as like a human is. And also, I think it might actually be adding overhead because it churns. It doesn’t know. All it knows is like, I’m gonna try to go do this thing. And it goes and does the thing. And it’s like, oh, there’s a lint error. Oh, there’s a type error. And then it just like bounces back and forth in there. And then it still can’t see. And even if you teach it to see, it doesn’t… man, we were trying to turn this thing into like a little human. ⁓ and I’m not seeing it wildly do great things inside of a big code base. And we just, okay, so here’s a good example. We just saw a codex 5.2 come out. chat GPT codex, right? Yeah. It’s opening I codex anyway. And it’s whole thing is they’re trying to pitch. Hey, if you got a big ass code base and you finding that AI models are really shitty at going through it and having long running ideas. we just made the AI model for you. It’s called Codex 5.2 and it’s specialized for long running bullshit. And then it’s like, I don’t think it’s actually gonna do that much better, man. Like it’s kind of like, there’s so much code and there’s so many edge cases. And it’s like CSS, CSS constantly shows up and it’s all like, it’s all like my job’s done. You’re like, did you look at it? And it’s like, yeah, I took a picture. Look at the pictures and it pretty, and you’re like, no, it’s vomit, dude. Like, did you even know? And it’s like.

[00:31:40] RobbieTheWagner: ⁓ God. Yeah.

[00:31:58] Adam Argyle: And then the other thing too is like we’re trying to do code mods or migrations or whatever it is. Like it can take a picture of the beginning state and it’ll take a picture of the end state happily and be like, I took pictures. And you’re like, yeah, but, ⁓ yeah. Well, a lot of times they’re not supposed to. So it’s like, how do you, how do you describe what’s supposed to change in the picture? That’s the follow-up one. If it’s a layout change, things drastically shift, you know?

[00:32:11] RobbieTheWagner: Do they look the same? Well, I think we’ll get there because it’s all based on like the, ⁓ God, my brain doesn’t work like the visual diffusion or whatever, wherever it like, you know, makes it all noise and then makes it not noise. Yeah. So like if we can figure out how to tell that, like this part of the noise is now blue, it could be like, yes, I’ve, I’ve made the noise a noisy blue right there and it is now blue. I know. I feel like there’s a way to do it.

[00:32:34] Adam Argyle: goes from static to the picture. Yeah. Nice. We got comments in here from Mr. Raydev. says, codex is crazy worse than even cloud. So Mr. Raydev was like, ah, a long running, oh, let me try it. And then all of a sudden it’s not. And I’m just not surprised by that because I want them to be good. And I think I talked about it last week too, where I’ve been rolling forward a skill. So that way when I spin up agents that, you know, like I have one little agent does this task.

[00:32:53] RobbieTheWagner: Haha Ha ha ha.

[00:33:14] Adam Argyle: and it helps evolve a skill. And that way it passes information forward. And I don’t have to keep a database. I don’t have to keep beads. I don’t have to keep Git. I don’t have to have Gastown. It’s like, just have this one migration, one code mod. I’m not trying to do this to my whole. And it it just screws up enough times. And it also hiccups on types constantly. So that’s why I’m looking at TypeScript going, what are you really doing right now, other than perceptively slowing us down?

[00:33:43] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I’m I think using it as a linter and not trying to be super strongly typed and using it like sparingly, I think is the way I would recommend using it now. Like if it’s a project that just I’m working on, I’m gonna I’m a completionist with the types. So I’m gonna get it all typed. But like, I think in terms of, you know, leading a team, just type the like one or two things that you know, people are getting wrong a lot or whatever, like help them there. But it’s just a linter. Like you could also write an ESLint rule that would like check, I using this thing wrong? And like, you know, I feel like it’s like that. It just has less steps. So like, I think that is the way I’m going to probably be using it going forward versus trying to have a fully typed everything. ⁓ Although I love when things are fully typed, but yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:28] Adam Argyle: Fully typed feels good. I’m not gonna lie, dude. It always feels, that’s why Rust is popular. If you can make your Rust app run, you’re like, hell yeah. Purr like a kitten. ⁓ know, like there’s no mess ups there. I feel like AI though, like, just once you’re past like four files, it just starts to go downhill. And even when they run these things over nights and weekends, like people are just spending tokens and I’m not seeing amazing results yet. And so here’s the thing though. So like I’m assuming it’s gonna get there.

[00:34:35] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah.

[00:34:58] Adam Argyle: And so ⁓ I’m gonna keep tinkering. I’m gonna keep trying to see how these tools work. ⁓ Because they’re not done growing every week, it’s just wild. So we’ll see where it all goes.

[00:35:07] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah, it’s been pretty good for me. I’ve been so at work. We have an exception to use copilot and only copilot basically. ⁓ Well, however, so we have a loophole now. This is new development as of today. ⁓ GitHub tweeted like open code is now fully, fully supported. And I was like, hmm.

[00:35:18] Adam Argyle: Sucks to be you. ⁓ this was Jared tweeted.

[00:35:33] RobbieTheWagner: So was like, OK, is this a loophole where we can use open code now? And the principal on my team was like, yes. And was like, hell, yeah. All right, we’re going to use that now.

[00:35:37] Adam Argyle: Yeah, open code can hit it. Yeah, dude, you gotta go install that. my open code. It’s ⁓ a really great layer on top of open code. I’m a big fan.

[00:35:46] RobbieTheWagner: Hmm. Yeah. So I want to come back to that and hear what’s in that. But did you see they have a app now? Like it’s not just the CLI. You can install an open code app.

[00:35:50] Adam Argyle: Okay. I saw you write that and open code black, so inform me. I am not caught up.

[00:35:59] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, so open code black is this thing. It’s like the Claude code like or Claude’s whatever where they have like the $20 tier and then the Max tier that’s like $100 and it’s like their version of that. But it just like spreads the work across whatever model they want at the time. So it’s like open codes in kind of except with a like more baked in price instead of charging you per token. And so people were signing up for it because they would open up like 20 spots at a time and they would sell out like before anyone could click it. So now they have just a wait list. Like you can go buy it and be like, we’ll charge you whenever we like onboard you finally. ⁓ So I signed up for it and I’m going to give it a try. ⁓ Cause open code I think is the best ⁓ developer experience thus far. So I want to try it with a like, I don’t have to worry about every couple hours at going, Hey, you got to wait a while to like do anything else. And also, like we said, you can’t use it with the I was using it with my Anthropic like $20 code, which no longer works. So you can use Anthropic like charge me based on every character you send me. But I don’t love that. So.

[00:37:10] Adam Argyle: Dude, ⁓ let’s compare, let’s wait, open code like a corn site for dead. Nice, that’s good.

[00:37:17] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah.

[00:37:21] Adam Argyle: I’m trying to like, so wait, what is it that you like about open code over Claude over ⁓ warp, for example, or even like, are you in cursor or are you in windsurf? Okay, you’re terminal all day, no IDEs. Are you using work trees?

[00:37:30] RobbieTheWagner: okay. No. Cursor and Windsorfer dead to me. I don’t want those. I like it being in the terminal. Yeah. No, I’m not doing anything super advanced ⁓ and a lot of my preferences are just vibes like open code was was the first one what to do the LSP stuff. So it like it was better at TypeScript than everyone else just because they connected it to a TypeScript LSP. And so that won me over like that was the first thing where I like told it to do something and it gave me a thing that I would actually ship like.

[00:37:42] Adam Argyle: Okay, no work trees. Okay. Bro, that’s fine. Yeah, what’s the vibe? Yeah.

[00:38:06] RobbieTheWagner: I did a lot of AI stuff before and it was like, this was like an interesting, you know, debugging exercise, but I’m not going to ship your code. And this one, I was like, wow, you did a good job. So I like, liked open code for that warp has done a good job as well, but it seems to like, I don’t know what it is. Maybe it’s because it’s kind of like, I have it set to autopick the model or whatever. Maybe it’s picking bad models.

[00:38:30] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[00:38:31] RobbieTheWagner: But it’s like very hit or miss. Like sometimes it does a terrible job, sometimes it does a great job, and it feels kind of like AI used to feel like. ⁓ So yeah, sometimes I’ve been using warp more, especially since the Claude stuff stopped working in OpenCode, and I’ve gotten some good stuff out of warp. Warp actually fixed a bug for me today with in swatch. There’s a ⁓ magnifier color picker thing. I know if I talked to you about this bug before, but so you got this circle, right?

[00:38:46] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[00:38:59] RobbieTheWagner: And you move it in the middle pixel like picks that color and on Windows. It works if you have a just a 100 % DPI screen like there’s no scaling factor, but if you have have.

[00:39:11] Adam Argyle: So it’s 72 or what do mean?

[00:39:15] RobbieTheWagner: Like like your your screen resolution. Let’s say you have a monitor that’s like 1080p. Right and you didn’t change it. Yeah, yeah. So then it worked. But if you like I have mindset to 200 % because I have like a 5000 pixel monitor. And so if you don’t, it’s like teeny tiny and I can’t read anything. So at 200 % it was not. It was like 1000 pixels off. Like it was clear offset like wasn’t factoring in the DPI.

[00:39:20] Adam Argyle: ⁓ it’s at its natural resolution. Gotcha. Okay, yeah.

[00:39:45] RobbieTheWagner: And so I had asked OpenCode a bunch of times to fix this. Like I had released several versions and it kept being like, it’s fixed, ship it. And I shipped it and it didn’t change anything. ⁓ so Warp was like, went down the same path for a minute and was like, yeah, let me fix it. Like we got to see what we multiply and divide and whatever. And it was like, wait, what if we just make the windows side DPI aware? So we don’t have to do any math. We just let it like pick the pixels. I was like, why haven’t, why has no one said that before? Why is it that’s an option?

[00:40:12] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[00:40:13] RobbieTheWagner: ⁓ So we did that and it works now. like warp saved me there. I don’t know what model it was using or, but like, yeah, it’s like, feel like warp is right 50 % of the time, but does like super magical, good stuff when it’s right. And open code is like stuff you could ship more often, but is maybe not as magical and fancy and good. I don’t know. Like it’s more of the baseline that I can kind of count on. ⁓ I think there’s room for both and I’ve had success with both.

[00:40:43] Adam Argyle: Yeah, so OpenCode, I’ve been playing with that for a couple of weeks. It’s now available at Shopify, as well as Cloud Code, both of which I can kind of pick whatever model I want. And so I have a lot of experience with both of those. Oh, yeah, we’ll talk about all my OpenCode here in a sec. But I also use Cursor a lot. Cursor has some killer features. People are like, I used Cloud today to. to spin up three agents to do some work. And I’m like, you know, in cursor, that’s just a dropdown menu, right? You write your prompt and you say, how many agents do you want to do the work? You say three and it creates work trees, bro. So it’s even fancier than that. So you go like three agents.

[00:41:16] RobbieTheWagner: Ooh, that’s fancy. Well, I haven’t used it in a while. When I used it, was like open ended text box. I was like, can you make this change? And it was like, I made it. And I was like, no, you didn’t. It like, yeah, I did. It’s like, no, you didn’t. So I didn’t. Maybe I should try it again because it was terrible when I use it last.

[00:41:30] Adam Argyle: haha It’s also like pretty wildly different. Well, it has two modes. Same thing with anti-gravity. Like they have agent modes where you’re like, I don’t even look at the code. You’re almost purely in like a, but I don’t use those as much. anyway, yeah, if you, if you open up cursor, fly out the side menu, write your prompt, look for the one X that’s underneath your prompt, change it to three or four. And all that does is create agents and work trees for each of those work streams. They work. you get to watch their little batons come back and then they highlight green, you click them and you see their diff. You review the diff and it changes your code as if it would have done before. And then you can like either accept it or try on the other one and try on the other one. So every time you click one, it changes your code to their changes. You can see it in your browser. If you’ve got a live reload going on, figure out the one you want, accept the one, delete the work trees and go back to working. Now, Claude can’t even do that.

[00:42:16] RobbieTheWagner: Hmm. Okay, so it’s so can get a bunch of possibilities and pick the best one. Okay.

[00:42:31] Adam Argyle: Yeah, I okay, wait, and I rephrase like Claude and OpenCode can do that exact same thing. It’s just, you have to be very explicit and deliberate and you don’t get the really rich switching kind of experience. Now, I, yeah.

[00:42:42] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, because like open code definitely uses sub agents because I’ve seen it say like I’ve got a bunch of sub agents doing this stuff, but it doesn’t let you see and pick like it’s not doing them side by side. I think it’s doing like separate things. It’s like four agents doing four different things, not four of the same to see which could have the better output. You know, so I think that’s a compelling use case because you do get wildly different stuff. It’s non deterministic. So like if I had four things doing the same thing, I picked the best one. I like that. I might have to try that.

[00:42:48] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Yep, there’s also, there’s so many, this world is crazy right now. Okay, so the other thing is you have people, and I’ve been trying this too, where you pit different AI models against each other. So no longer, like right now we’re in a very mono model, model. Oh shit, that was M and M and M, right? Where you’re like monogamous with your model. But a lot of, there’s people out there that are polyamorous with their models. That’s just fun to say. And they, are basically saying, okay, hey Gemini, you go do this task. Hey Claude, you go do this task. Hey Chachi Petit, you go do this task. then, hey Claude, go review this work that came back from Claude ⁓ or whatever. Anyway, you have them review each other. And that’s like one of the superpowers of open code is that you can kind of put them together and warp, right? You can open up command T and warp. You hit command D to split it vertically, command shift D. And now you’ve got four quadrants like you’re in TMUX. You can have four different agents reviewing other agents work to sort of get yourself into this scenario where you’re not trusting a single agent to do everything. That’s wild. And so yeah, you combine that with like work trees and these other things. So here’s the magic of warp that I still really like is that I don’t have to care about what is an MCP server, what is a skill and what is a hook and what is a command. I get to tell it what I want and it sort of derives the best thing for me. And my favorite thing is still MCP.

[00:44:15] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:34] Adam Argyle: Discovery where I’m like, hey, I need this thing to to get done like what happened recently Are they it’s good

[00:44:38] RobbieTheWagner: Copilot’s doing that too. It was like, I was like do some Git stuff and it was like pulling the Git Kraken MCP to figure out how Git works. And I was like, ⁓ shit, okay.

[00:44:47] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Yeah, that’s really cool stuff. Because it’s really annoying configuring things. OK, let me rephrase. Configuring things is very fun. It’s also a time waste. So if something can configure on the fly based on my request, that’s really cool. And warp is the one that constantly does that for me, where I’m like, I ask for a thing and I say, hey, go verify it. And then it’ll be like, sure. I’ll spin up a browser. And all of sudden, Chrome opens up with this special profile. And I can see it taking pictures. And then it starts to cost me a lot of money. because it’s like, I took pictures and then I took the picture and I tokenized it and I sent it to the server and I reviewed it and I’m doing it again and again and again. I’m like, stop taking pictures right now, you’re gonna eat up all my credits.

[00:45:25] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah. $20 later, you should use this MCP.

[00:45:30] Adam Argyle: Crap, yeah. But yeah, that’s a, I was trying to just like tell someone why I like windsurf better than cursor the other day. And I just couldn’t, it was vibes. And I’m like, it’s annoying. I wish I could tell you more, yeah.

[00:45:43] RobbieTheWagner: It’s yeah when I had both and that was the same for me too. It was like ⁓ at the base use case of like, do you know opening a file and just working on some stuff and hitting tab to tab through stuff. It was better. I don’t know why they both do the same thing like but it was just I felt better with the like tab autocomplete and at the time the agentic stuff in both was abysmal. So it didn’t matter, like the, you know, day to day, I’m still writing code. I just want you to auto-complete a couple of things worked way better in Windsor for me, for whatever reason.

[00:46:19] Adam Argyle: Okay, so let’s talk about cowork and then I want to talk about agency. What do you know about, I saw cowork is like making files for people and it has file system access and I was like, nope, I am not ready for this thing to like just be reading all of my shit. No, thank you. I want to give it to it with a spoon. I’m not ready for automated.

[00:46:25] RobbieTheWagner: I don’t know anything about it. Yeah, I haven’t. Yeah, I haven’t used it, but I just saw somebody tweeted like, thank God, and thropic is coming for everyone else’s jobs now. And I was like, yes, yes, that is a because like, I do find myself being like, all right, I have a you know, I can’t think of an example, but some task I want to do in life, like I’d like to plan this thing, schedule this thing, you know, research, getting tickets to something doing whatever, like I would like to be able to approach that in the same way of just being like, hello, agentic thing. Like I want to do this stuff. Tell me the best way, like find it for me. So I think it’s compelling to like apply that workflow to the rest of your life. But like, yeah, I do think you’re going to hit a token problem and like if we’re using it for everything, the cost is going to catch up at some point. Like you can’t get used to using it for everything. So I don’t know. I’m cautiously optimistic. I think it’s cool. I want to try it out, but I just wanted to mention that it exists. I don’t have much else to say about it as of now.

[00:47:35] Adam Argyle: Yeah, me neither. I kind of got scared by it. I was like, I’m not ready for that. But you know what the thing that scared me the most though wasn’t a Cowork kind of like taking those jobs. It’s that I saw ⁓ AI is now growing crops, it’s growing food. ⁓ And I was like, ⁓ so farmers, maybe we won’t have farmers anymore. I was like, what if AI disrupts the farming industry? Yikes.

[00:47:49] RobbieTheWagner: Hmm. Yeah, well the farming industry is a whole nother episode we could talk about. Like I think that whole thing is broken. We should not have big giant farms where like if one company has like a bad growing season, we don’t have food. Like the local farm model is what we should be doing, but I’m not, I’m going to get off my soapbox because we’re going to run out of time. um, yeah, tell me about agency or whatever you’re saying.

[00:48:18] Adam Argyle: You Okay, so agency ⁓ in an age where ⁓ intellectual stuff is on tap. What you need now are people that are adventurers and tinkerers and the people that you can trust to go figure it out. ⁓ So you need to use, we’re seeing a rise of agency, meaning that we want to give people less of a specific role and trust people to just go around and do good. work for the company, you can focus on this area and we’re not going to tell you very much what to do. What we want to do is trust you that you’re equipped with AI and that you are just constantly doing good. You’re deploying agents over here to do that. That’s improving whatever you’re over here, improving internal processes. You’re making an internal tool like you are free. Now you’re now liberated. Your chains have been broken from your front end role or even your design role. We want to give you agency and trust you to just go do good. And I’m like, that’s really cool.

[00:49:29] RobbieTheWagner: So it’s cool, but like in that world, and I guess this is the world we’re in everywhere, even if you are specialized in one specific area, like how do you ever get a raise or a new position? like, if you’re just kind of like, you’re in charge of the vibes of this area of work. It’s like, well, how do I show that I did good at the vibes? Like what’s the success criteria? You build your own criteria? Okay, well, yeah.

[00:49:50] Adam Argyle: Well, you used your agency and you actually, you made a change that’s like, yeah.

[00:49:58] RobbieTheWagner: So I mean, I guess there’s that. Like if you’re if you’re your own manager in your own department and you’re setting your own goals and you’re writing RFCs that you comment on yourself and you’re like, I don’t know, like I feel like there has to be someone at some level that’s deciding like is the criteria you came up with good? Do we agree? Did you do well? Should you get more money like or I don’t know. Maybe all that is done. Maybe there’s no more promotions for anyone ever.

[00:50:27] Adam Argyle: I I feel like we’re pretty quickly heading towards, ⁓ we don’t need developers, designers, or any of us anymore. So, that’s depressing.

[00:50:38] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, please give me a severance of the rest of the money that I would have made for the rest of my life and I’ll be happy. ⁓ yeah, my 401k is not ready to have no job.

[00:50:44] Adam Argyle: Hahaha It’s gonna be wild if ⁓ it really does displace as many things as it’s kind of positioned to.

[00:50:59] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, no, I’m trying to get in the physical goods game. Like I was talking to my friend who is a local farmer. He has popcorn on the cob that he just like he doesn’t take it off the cob. You just get the whole cob. He gives you a bag and you put it in the microwave. I thought you had to take it off the cob to pop it, but you don’t. And so I was like, this is so cool. Like people would love to take a fucking cob and put it in their microwave. Like, why does no one sell it in this form? So I’m like,

[00:51:12] Adam Argyle: Cool. ⁓ Hells yeah!

[00:51:28] RobbieTheWagner: We should do that. Like, why are we? should do that online. Yeah. And then he starts scheming. He’s like, yeah, you just need 40 acres and you can grow one million cobs a year. like, I was like, OK, like I’m not ready for that. But like, yeah, I want to get into something like that, like experiment. Like, I think I can help you iterate on your ideas and you’re like, have a good website with basically no effort and like throw up some Instagram ads, see where it lands like.

[00:51:30] Adam Argyle: Yeah, what are the downsides? Yeah.

[00:51:58] RobbieTheWagner: I don’t know. I want to get into more of that kind of stuff because I feel like, you know, the developer stuff can’t, can’t last forever. Like I think we’ll outpace most hopefully like before we’re obsolete, but yeah, I don’t know. It’s bleak.

[00:52:09] Adam Argyle: You stay on top of it. Yep. It is oddly bleak. I mean, last week was bleak, right? Now we’re bleak still. I don’t know where the hope is.

[00:52:21] RobbieTheWagner: We always will be. We still bring the joy though. We’re having whiskey. It’s okay.

[00:52:25] Adam Argyle: Hey, I showed a zombie killer. wait, I want to talk about something that brought me joy this week. It’s a want my MTV dot versell dot app.

[00:52:33] RobbieTheWagner: MTV just stopped running right? saw that like they spun down.

[00:52:35] Adam Argyle: It’s, you can watch MTV. So do you remember? ⁓ That’s what I’m saying. It doesn’t have to stop you can watch someone’s curated everything off of YouTube all the music videos put them organized by like era and Commercials and put it into a thing. So it’s like did you ever watch Nick reboot thought TV? I think was Nick group reboot daddy You could just go to this website and it was playing stuff and you just tuned in like it was old-school TV There’s commercials, you know, skip it skip it or whatever ⁓

[00:52:55] RobbieTheWagner: Mm-mm.

[00:53:07] Adam Argyle: And you’d watch Hey Arnold and you’d catch half the episode because you tuned in late, you know, and it was awesome. Got shut down for probably pretty good reasons, but this MTV one is awesome in the same way. You can be like, I want to listen to 2000s music videos and you just go there, you hit a button and there’s like 3000 music videos from the 2000s that’ll just randomly play for you and play commercials in between every it’s been awesome, dude. And I’m finding new music. I’m like, how did I not know that song? That metal song was badass.

[00:53:12] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Hmm. Nice. Yeah, that sounds cool. Yeah. I was I was always a fuse listener. Did you ever listen? Watch fuse.

[00:53:40] Adam Argyle: I didn’t but my spouse was huge in a few years, yeah.

[00:53:42] RobbieTheWagner: yeah. Yeah, it was ⁓ like as soon as that came out. I don’t know what it was like the alternative MTV like more rock based and I just had it playing like all day like I thought it was so cool. ⁓ But yeah, I mean music videos I feel like are a lost art like people are still making them but it’s like I’m I personally don’t like to go consume YouTube. I’m probably in the minority there but like I like a thing that just picks it for me. Curate it. I don’t

[00:53:52] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[00:54:10] RobbieTheWagner: I don’t wanna go like click on it. I just want it to be a feed with commercials and like, yeah, like traditional TV. Sounds good. Yeah.

[00:54:15] Adam Argyle: You’re gonna love this. It’s been really nice for while I’m working. So I just put it on. it’s been, it’s okay. So let me rephrase. It’s been really nice. That’s still the phrase, but also sometimes really distracting. Cause I’m like, that music video is really sexy. I’m like, holy shit. That was that well I watched that as a 14 year old. I’m like, my goodness. I’m like, that shit was hot as hell. Louise. So anyway, I just from like watching these music videos, like that was okay. Holy cheese.

[00:54:30] RobbieTheWagner: Ha In the 2000s?

[00:54:45] Adam Argyle: Wow! ⁓ But also some of them are just hilariously like simple and awesome. So enjoy everybody. We’ll put that link in the show notes.

[00:54:47] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we always end up watching music videos at the end of like anytime we have people over and we’re hanging out and it’s like 1 a.m. That’s like you just throw on music videos. So that’d be cool to throw that on. You don’t have to even pick the next one.

[00:55:06] Adam Argyle: Yeah, yeah, good call.

[00:55:08] RobbieTheWagner: So yeah, I got six-ish minutes left. I do want to mention the topic that we didn’t get to. Did we get to it? And then I was like, should we talk about it more next time? I don’t know. Anyway, the fact that booze and nicotine and like, you know, any sort of like thing that are fun or historically thought of as fun ⁓ are like way down. And it’s like people probably still like fun.

[00:55:27] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[00:55:34] RobbieTheWagner: So I don’t know if it’s like a one one thing could be like a health thing. Like maybe people I know there’s a lot of different like I get so many ads for like this cocktail alternative. It makes you feel good. I’m like, feel good. How what drugs are in it? Nothing. OK, probably doesn’t do anything like so I’m like, I don’t know. I’m skeptical about those. I know if you’ve tried any of those like just purely.

[00:55:49] Adam Argyle: Yeah. The NA party beer. I keep getting, yeah, I keep getting those like, you still want to party but don’t want to drink? Here, have this NA beer. I’m like.

[00:55:58] RobbieTheWagner: ⁓ Beer beer is awful. I don’t want to drink beer if it doesn’t have alcohol in it. That’s stupid ⁓ So no, but like the like kin euphorics. Have you seen those like? ⁓ It’s it’s just like a herbally I don’t know nootropic like supposed to be like good for your mind make you more social Etc like, you know the good parts of drinking but like not the bad but like I haven’t tried them So guess I can’t shit on it until I try it, but I am very skeptical ⁓

[00:56:04] Adam Argyle: Ha No.

[00:56:27] RobbieTheWagner: But anyway, people could be doing some of that, could be doing whatever, but I think…

[00:56:30] Adam Argyle: How could that succeed though? If actual booze is down, how could the NA alternatives be up?

[00:56:37] RobbieTheWagner: I don’t know. yeah, I’m my hypothesis is that everything is down. I think everyone is losing their jobs. The entire economy is down. Inflation is up. Recession big time like

[00:56:39] Adam Argyle: Okay sorry, anyway keep going on your train of thought. Minnesota’s throwing bombs into people’s cars as they’re trying to exit ice. Yep, it’s nuts. Yep.

[00:56:52] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, like ⁓ I saw on the Today Show the other day that pizza is down like 30 % like and it’s like That’s what I’m saying. It’s like if even pizza can’t do well like pretty much an American staple like ⁓ I think everything is down because everyone is like I can’t afford to live much less go get a fucking pizza So like I’m gonna make a pizza at home if I want a pizza like I think that’s what’s happening. So I don’t think

[00:57:00] Adam Argyle: What’s up? You know, yeah. Mmm.

[00:57:22] RobbieTheWagner: people like I think there could be increased demand for like all this stuff again. I’m not sure. I’m just like, you know, spouting whatever. But I that that’s how I feel. I don’t think that it’s like doom and gloom around the alcohol industry and it’s going to fully go away because like you got to replace it with something. People need something to numb their minds.

[00:57:42] Adam Argyle: Man, just a just you know, an herbal tea. I keep wondering about supply and demand So as soon as I’m like, these things are down So supply is there demand is down. I’m like what so it’s everything gonna get cheaper. That would kind of be awesome Wouldn’t it?

[00:57:56] RobbieTheWagner: Well, that would be a welcome thing. Yeah, because the whiskey industry has gotten nuts. This stuff is way too expensive. Like Chuck was telling me about it. And ⁓ I don’t know the full story, but the essential ⁓ facts are basically like, you know, they sell like this whistle pig. Let’s say they’d sell it for 20 bucks, 30 bucks, whatever, like the original cheap price. And then they were noticing people would buy all of them and resell them on like, you know, I bought this liquor dot com for like 60 bucks and they’re like, wait, you guys are buying all this because you think it’s good and just like making it more expensive. We’ll just make it more expensive. We’ll just we’ll cut out the middle man. And so that’s why everything has gone up like to whiskey like the cheapest of like anything that’s not like a Jack Daniels is like if it’s a nice whiskey, it’s going to be 50 bucks plus like because that’s what’s happened and it’s it’s unfortunate.

[00:58:34] Adam Argyle: Yeah. So is a dinner for two anywhere. It’s ridiculous.

[00:58:49] RobbieTheWagner: Okay, yeah, that’s it. Yeah. So we’ve had this debate with one of our friends. It’s like he’s like, okay, if you go to like, I don’t know, fast food, McDonald’s, Taco Bell, whatever, and you’re like, all right, I’ve got two adults, couple kids, whatever the amount that you’ll spend on that. He’s saying is actually sometimes more than you’ll spend going to like a sit down restaurant because like if you go to he has certain ones you go to that like if you get

[00:58:54] Adam Argyle: You

[00:59:15] RobbieTheWagner: Adult entree your kids eat free or something like that. And so it’s like the kids aren’t a factor in the cost so you got two adult entrees at like 20 bucks or whatever and then like Yeah, I’m like, well what about tip or whatever? He’s like no he insists like it doesn’t matter what he does It’s cheaper to sit at the like sit-down restaurants like that’s fucked up man Like that’s not the way it should be like fast food has gotten super expensive

[00:59:38] Adam Argyle: Super expensive. I’ve noticed the same thing the there’s so we do woody Wednesdays and one of the reasons we do little woody’s is because it’s ⁓ Locally, it’s like a local famous person. It’s wildly cheap Really good quality their french fries are amazing and I walk out of there and I can feed the whole family for 45 bucks I pretty much can’t do that anywhere anywhere ⁓ It’s crazy and so

[01:00:01] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, Seattle is its own beast because when I was there, I got Taco Bell delivered and I got, let’s see, like a burrito and two tacos or something like not a lot. And it was like sixty seven dollars or something like with all the like because they’re like, hey, you’re in Seattle, bro. Like this is going to be at least thirty dollars just for us to even open the door dash app. And then like

[01:00:20] Adam Argyle: my goodness. You

[01:00:29] RobbieTheWagner: Like there’s so many extra fees and I was like, holy shit. yeah, mean, stuff is probably just more expensive in general and in your area, but.

[01:00:32] Adam Argyle: Yeah, the fees are nuts. If you buy, if you’re buying food for just yourself, the order stuff is just stupid. You’re going to pay more in fees than the food is, and as always, yeah.

[01:00:42] RobbieTheWagner: Yep, that’s why I always order like two or three meals whenever I get delivery and then you just microwave it.

[01:00:48] Adam Argyle: Good idea dang that’s a it’s life hack right there

[01:00:52] RobbieTheWagner: Yep, Yeah, and also Costco has Uber Eats and DoorDash gift cards. You can get $100 of gift cards for like $75 or $80 bucks or something. I buy them every time I go. They limit you. You can only get like four per month or something because they don’t want you just having infinite like percent off at DoorDash, I guess. I don’t know. Yep, yep.

[01:01:03] Adam Argyle: How does that make any sense? This so weird. This is so weird. This world is so weird right now.

[01:01:22] RobbieTheWagner: Alright, we are at time. Is there anything that we missed that you want to mention before we end?

[01:01:27] Adam Argyle: No man, that was awesome.

[01:01:29] RobbieTheWagner: Cool. All right, thanks everyone for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe, leave us some ratings. Please actually do. I’m not gonna say the same spiel that I always do. Go to Spotify, click our show, click Rate, give it five stars, do the same on Apple. It is very quick. Those of you that are listening that haven’t done it, shame on you. I’ve asked you so many times. All right, we’ll catch you guys next time.

[01:01:50] Adam Argyle: Hahaha

[01:01:52] RobbieTheWagner: Yeah, like.